How to define LCL and get process capability for MIN spec requirement

Jhcho

Registered
Hello,

The customer of mine is requesting to establish a control limit of the tensile strength of the component.
the drawing says MIN 100 N,
but i get results if low, 1100N and Max 5500 N aprox.
so the results has a lot variation and the range is large. But is way above the requirement.
How do I establish a LOWER CONTROL LIMIT in this case and how do I calculate the process capability?
I appreciate your help.
Thank you
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Leader
Super Moderator
SO there is a bit to unpack here…can you provide us the exact wording of your Customer’s request? Also can you tell us what your sampling scheme is? Ho many parts, how many measurements per part and how often do you sample parts. “Control Limit” has a very specific statistical meaning and from what you have posted I suspect that either your Customer or you do not understand what a control limit is and how it is used. This is fairly common and you are wise to come here to ask.

The proper use of the term Control Limit is when you are using SPC (Statistical Process Control) charting to monitor your process. Are you using SPC? Ho familiar are you with SPC and eh establishment of subgroups, frequency, charting and establishing statistical control?

What do you mean by process capability? Are you calculating one of the process capability indexes like Cpk or Ppk? What formula are you using? Within subgroup standard deviation or total standard deviation?

In many cases the control limits are calculated using subgroups of data that are between 2-5 sequentially produced parts with 1 measurement per part. The Chart is an X-bar, R Chart, In other words you are plotting the subgroup averages and the within subgroup range for each subgroup ( set of samples). The lower control limit will be the lower limit of expected variation of the subgroup average and as such this limit cannot be used for process capability calculations. In this case you will have to calculate the process capability index from all of the individual values after you have established that the process is in control.

In some cases - such as with destruct testing like tensile strength - a I, MR chart is a better choice (I, MR is an individuals, moving range chart). If this is yoru SPC charting method ten the Lower Control limit can be used for process capability index calculations...HOWEVER, since tensile strength is destruct an can be weirdly distributed it is essential that we understand teh questions above adn perhaps see some of your data…
 

Jhcho

Registered
SO there is a bit to unpack here…can you provide us the exact wording of your Customer’s request? Also can you tell us what your sampling scheme is? Ho many parts, how many measurements per part and how often do you sample parts. “Control Limit” has a very specific statistical meaning and from what you have posted I suspect that either your Customer or you do not understand what a control limit is and how it is used. This is fairly common and you are wise to come here to ask.

The proper use of the term Control Limit is when you are using SPC (Statistical Process Control) charting to monitor your process. Are you using SPC? Ho familiar are you with SPC and eh establishment of subgroups, frequency, charting and establishing statistical control?

What do you mean by process capability? Are you calculating one of the process capability indexes like Cpk or Ppk? What formula are you using? Within subgroup standard deviation or total standard deviation?

In many cases the control limits are calculated using subgroups of data that are between 2-5 sequentially produced parts with 1 measurement per part. The Chart is an X-bar, R Chart, In other words you are plotting the subgroup averages and the within subgroup range for each subgroup ( set of samples). The lower control limit will be the lower limit of expected variation of the subgroup average and as such this limit cannot be used for process capability calculations. In this case you will have to calculate the process capability index from all of the individual values after you have established that the process is in control.

In some cases - such as with destruct testing like tensile strength - a I, MR chart is a better choice (I, MR is an individuals, moving range chart). If this is yoru SPC charting method ten the Lower Control limit can be used for process capability index calculations...HOWEVER, since tensile strength is destruct an can be weirdly distributed it is essential that we understand teh questions above adn perhaps see some of your data…
First of all thank you for the answer!
Usually for other characteristics the control spec is defined by the mean and the standard deviation by 3 sigma.
But in this characteristics have tolerances of LSL and USL,

In the drawing it mentions exactly,
THE MINIMUM PULL STRENGTH SHALL BE HIGHER THAN 100N.

And the customer wants to perform 30 Pull Test with random sampling, and define a control limit, which I suppose that should be higher than 100N. Internally we have been discussing aprox 300 to 400N, because the Pull Strength that we get is above 800N to 2000N. The variation is large so i guess the process cabaility is not stable. But this part i checked with the customer and seems can be ommited.
So I don't know how can I get a accurate control limit statiscally, but not being too high to prevent issues of being as a NG part even though it is over the specification limit. For example control limit set is to 700N but I get 650N, even though it is 6.5 times higher than specification it is out of control spec....
 

Semoi

Involved In Discussions
Control limits have nothing to do with specifications! These are two concepts. Don't try to combine/mix them.

Control limits are indicators that your process performs as expected (=in-control) -- in a statistical sense. However, control charts are useless, if you do not embrace the concept of continuous improvement: Control charts are the wrong tool, if you are not willing to investigate "out-of-control" events. Usually the "statement" goes like this: Well, we have an outlier, but this does not matter, because the outlier is still above my specification. I have heard this "statement" many times, so please recall my first sentence: "Control limits have nothing to do with specifications!"

The reason Bev asked for your sampling plane is that the control limits are not based on
average value +/- 3 global standard deviation,
but instead uses
average value +/- 3 times within-subgroup standard deviation
If we have a "large" between-subgroup variation, these two calculation schemes yield different results.
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Leader
Super Moderator
Is your Customer defining that the ‘control limit’ will be the average +/- 3 Standard deviations or are you doing this?

A large variation does NOT mean that you are not capable nor does it mean that you are not stable.

The use of a random 30 piece sample to establish a ‘control limit’ comes from the misunderstanding of how to calculate a capability index. A ‘random’ sample might help IF your process is homogenous (same variation within a lot and from lot to lot, without any obvious patterns) but I seriously doubt that your process is homogenous and this would lead to you chasing - or worse and incorrectly rejecting - lots that are perfectly fine but that have values below the ‘control limit’

Please answer the questions I asked above regarding your sampling. Without these answers we really can’t help you much.

I think you would be better off reading the works of Donald Wheeler to start learning about control limits and capability and specifications. See Dr Wheeler’s works at SPCPress.com. Pay particular attention to the concept of homogeneity, teh myths of control charts and how to properly calculate control limits.
 

Jhcho

Registered
I am sorry not answering to the questions clearly! My apologies!

1. Exact wording of your Customer’s request
- THE MINIMUM PULL STRENGTH SHALL BE HIGHER THAN 100N.
2. What your sampling scheme is? How many parts, how many measurements per part and how often do you sample parts.
- For Mass Production: 1 time per year for Pull Test, 1 sample
For Pre launch (EPC): 1 time per setup, 1 sample
3. Are you using SPC? Ho familiar are you with SPC and eh establishment of subgroups, frequency, charting and establishing statistical control?
- Yes, we are using SPC, SPC for CMM Measurement Data and Sediment control.
4. What do you mean by process capability? Are you calculating one of the process capability indexes like Cpk or Ppk? What formula are you using? Within subgroup standard deviation or total standard deviation?
- At the moment we are in development stage, so the we the process capability is calcuated based on the Ppk, and we use minitab for this. Is calcualted by the subgroup standard deviation with 125 samples.
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Leader
Super Moderator
Here are some articles to focus on:
Wheeler, Donald, “Analyzing Data – The Effect of Variation”, Quality Digest March 1996 https://www.qualitydigest.com/mar/spctools.html

Wheeler, Donald, “Why We Keep Having Hundred Year Floods”, Quality Digest, June 2013, Why We Keep Having 100-Year Floods

Wheeler, Donald, “The Secret Foundation of Statistical Analysis”, Quality Digest, December 2015 The Secret Foundation of Statistical Inference

Wheeler, Donald, “Statistics 101 and Data Analysis”, Quality Digest, March 2016 Statistics 101 and Data Analysis: an Example

Wheeler, Donald, J., “Foundations of Shewhart’s Charts”, SPC Tool Kit column, Quality Digest, October, 1996 https://www.qualitydigest.com/oct96/spctool.html

Wheeler, Donald J., “Exact Answer to the Wrong Question, Why Statisticians Still Do Not Understand Shewhart”, Quality Digest, March 2012 www.spcpress.com/pdf/DJW240.pdf

Wheeler, Donald, “The Right and Wrong Ways of Computing Limits”, Quality Digest, January 2010 The Right and Wrong Ways of Computing Limits

Wheeler, Donald, “Good Limits from Bad Data I”, Quality Digest, March 1997 SPCTool

Wheeler, Donald, “Good Limits from Bad Data II”, Quality Digest, April 1997 SPCTool

Wheeler, Donald, “Rational Subgrouping”, Quality Digest, June 2015 (broken link removed)

Wheeler, Donald, “Rational Sampling”, Quality Digest, July 2015 https://www.qualitydigest.com/inside/statistics-column/rational-sampling-070115.html

Wheeler, Donald, “The Chart for Individual Values”, https://www.iienet2.org/uploadedfil...ransition/The Chart For Individual Values.pdf
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Leader
Super Moderator
Can you clarify?
Only 1 sample per year for mass production?
So you are not doing SPC for tensile strength on mass production?
What is the exact wording of the Customer requirement for the LCL?
 

Jhcho

Registered
Can you clarify?
Only 1 sample per year for mass production?
So you are not doing SPC for tensile strength on mass production?
What is the exact wording of the Customer requirement for the LCL?
Yes, it was considered as a reliability test that will be conducted once per year per Tool.
But the new SQE, wants us to define a LCL, for example
Drawing SPEC: 100N Min
Control SPEC: 300N Min (Internal) something like that
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Leader
Admin
Is your customer really looking for a statistical control limit or simply a guard band tolerance?
 
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