Which of these are Processes and should have Process Maps and why?

Re: Which of these are processes and why?

Paul Simpson said:

...I had hoped people would be moving the thread on to some assessment of significance and business risk.

We are the people who are supposedly driving quality forward and talking to senior managers about strategic approaches to quality.

It seems we can't even grasp the pareto principle.

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Hi Paul - you got to go skiing, and in the US, many of us were sliding along the roads in snowstorms...I think you had more fun.

More than half of the posts addressed some degree of separating your list into higher level processes and lower level sub-activities, but I agree, it would have been nice if everyone got that understanding from your stated exercise.

I got two things from your exercise:

The poll results do show a reasonable degree of understanding higher and lower level processes.

It does point out that different companies will choose to define their system into different processes, and we auditors need to be open to various approaches, as long as they are reasonable.

Re: Which of these are processes and why?

Helmut Jilling said:

Hi Paul - you got to go skiing, and in the US, many of us were sliding along the roads in snowstorms...I think you had more fun.

More than half of the posts addressed some degree of separating your list into higher level processes and lower level sub-activities, but I agree, it would have been nice if everyone got that understanding from your stated exercise.

I got two or three things from your exercise:

1. The poll results do show a reasonable degree of understanding higher and lower level processes.
2. It does point out that different companies will choose to define their system into different processes, and we auditors need to be open to various approaches, as long as they are reasonable.

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1. 44% agree that IT Support is a viable "suport process."

Thanks for putting the exercise up. I think it was worthwhile. Some of the items, Change Management, for example, could be defined as a process by some, and others would put it under their Design or Engineering process. So that would show differences in the poll.

Re: Which of these are processes and why?

Paul Simpson said:

Yay for Randy and your usual non partisan contribution to intelligent debate. As you can see I have returned from my vacation full of the joys of spring!

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Thank you Paul............

I will be in the UK in early April, possibly Milton Keynes, attending AS9110 Train-the-Trainer. I don't know the particulars yet.

Re: Which of these are processes and why?

Paul Simpson said:

Just to clear up a couple of things:

1. Yes, they are all processes
2. They are all important in their own way

There is no requirement for a process map, please excuse my shorthand, if I have to explain every word and phrase the flow gets lost. A bit like reading a dictionary as a novel - not much of a plot but at least every word is explained as you go along!
If we take the ISO wording for the requirement in the quality manual: then I presume in this high level document you wouldn't (taking the least popular option) include a reference to "E-mailing our brochures." Or have I misjudged you all totally?

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Paul

Welcome back! As you might expect(!), I have one or two observations which might well be at variance with your comments:

"Which of the following is a process worthy of inclusion on your process map"?

What do you imagine "my process map" might be? I ain't got one, and never will...

To me, a "process map" is a description of a process. Drawing a picture (a "system map"?) to define the "sequence and interaction of processes" is very often an incomplete, relatively worthless and pointless exercise, which may do the drawer some good, but is unlikely to tell the workers little more than "we win work, we do work, and then send an invoice, and we need to control a few things as we do it". And so what if an external assessor wants to see a picture?

"Yes, they are all processes":

"Management responsibility" is a process? Never! It is a heading in a standard - that doesn't make it a process.

"The annual budget" is a piece of information - no "transformation" in sight (if we use the "traditional" definition of a process (not that I would recommend it...))

And "Contract review" is very often just a task in the tendering process - it doesn't even mean "the review of a contract" (it happens before there is any agreement to review), but it has got into people's mindsets because of the old version of 9001 and the fact that folk didn't read the words and think what they meant.

"I have to explain every word and phrase" - sometimes it may be necessary - assumptions are dangerous things (maybe even processes...?)!

Re: Which of these are processes and why?

Randy said:

Thank you Paul............

I will be in the UK in early April, possibly Milton Keynes, attending AS9110 Train-the-Trainer. I don't know the particulars yet.

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Randy - I know one or two good pubs (well they were when I lived there!) in the area and some around and about.......

Will you get a chance for a few days vacation, while over there?

Re: Which of these are processes should have process maps and why?

I'm going to have a day or two on both sides of the training because of travel costs and I hope to get around a bit to endanger US-UK relations

My wife is really upset. Judi lived in the UK a couple of years with her 1st husband and our oldest was born there. Judi still has a good friend she has remained in touch with and is frothing at the bit because of a previous engagement she can't get out of, so she can't go.

I'm actually more interested in the "historical" stuff and will be mapping out an intinerary once I know the dates and all that. Being a history buff of sorts I appreciate the common history we share.

This is my 1st trip and maybe my only trip so I need to make the most of it.

Re: Which of these are processes should have process maps and why?

Randy:
It's all history - you won't have to go far............

Don't waste your time going to Stonehenge.......there's a lot more interesting stuff than a bunch of bricks sticking out of the grass

Ditto

Phil Fields said:

I voted that they all were processes, thay all have INPUTS and OUTPUTS.

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Same here.

Visiting Stonehenge - 2008

AndyN said:

Don't waste your time going to Stonehenge.......there's a lot more interesting stuff than a bunch of bricks sticking out of the grass

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Stonehenge

I was there in 1965. No fences or anything. In fact, the day we were there we were the only people there, at least while we were there for a couple of hours. It was *neat*. I was 15 at the time. My parents and my little sister and I went there (we were living in Wimbledon and did a lot of weekend trips). I'm sorta a history nut (as was my father), and I was even back then. History and anthropology are neat!

Re: Ditto

Marc said:

Same here.

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They are all processes, of some sort of importance...but would you actually define them as full processes in the QMS, at a flowchart level?