Deming’s eighth point

I am not aware of any instances of Dr. Deming addressing labor laws, but that is a reasonable extension of his principles I will agree the USA has a very fear (and anger) based culture. The current headlines bear that out.

Howard Atkins said:

Until I visited the USA I never understood this point.
The USA labour laws are those that promote fear.
Other western countries cannot fire people so easily and fear is less of an issue.

Demming wants to change labour laws and improve the lot of the workers

Click to expand...

I don't recall Deming specifically addressing labor laws. Perhaps you can point these instances out?

Furthermore, fear is just one negative aspect of work culture. The counterpoint is that in a situation where it is almost impossible to fire people, some people poison the culture by taking advantage of that fact. Not every employee behaves honorably just like not every employer does.

There is also an American way of managing a business that is different from other nations. I had only ever worked for a foreign (Belgian) company once. In the USA I often thought about "Drive it till it breaks' where management continues to operate until it literally breaks down. In this EU country, they invested heavily in driving changes so it can be a mindset. Maybe my observation is unique though.

Unfortunately, "Drive it till it breaks" aka "Run to Failure" is pervasive in the States.

When I said that he wanted to change labour laws that was my interpretation after seeing about fear..

Mike S. said:

I don't recall Deming specifically addressing labor laws. Perhaps you can point these instances out?

Furthermore, fear is just one negative aspect of work culture. The counterpoint is that in a situation where it is almost impossible to fire people, some people poison the culture by taking advantage of that fact. Not every employee behaves honorably just like not every employer does.

Click to expand...

This is the culture of negativity .


30 years ago no one in the states took a drug test.
It is against the law in most other countries as an infringement of human rights

Howard Atkins said:

When I said that he wanted to change labour laws that was my interpretation after seeing about fear..



This is the culture of negativity .


30 years ago no one in the states took a drug test.
It is against the law in most other countries as an infringement of human rights

Click to expand...

You may call it the culture of negativity, I call it reality.

I'll be the first to admit that poor management is often at fault for the problems in an organization. Including organizations outside of the USA. But what is "Management" but people, fallible people, in higher organizational positions? Do you think there are no negative ramifications to making it almost impossible to fire people?

30 years ago the drug problem wasn't the same as it is now. I don't necessarily like it, but I understand the desire of employers to drug test.

A large local international Fortune 500 company has a difficult time trying to find manufacturing workers despite paid training, great pay and health benefits that start day one. Why? So many people fail the drug test, primarily for hard drugs, not weed.

Would Deming say to drive out the fear of failing the drug test by not doing drug testing?

What about the human rights of the clean employees not to be endangered by co-workers high on drugs?

Mike S. said:

IMO that's an overreaction (requiring an 8D for every early exit) and could in itself induce fear for the person(s) or function(s) assigned the hiring and/or 8D CA process. I'd think it could also skew hiring practices in ways they didn't anticipate.

Click to expand...

I think it could. But like every other corrective action process, it depends on how it's used, fixing blame or fixing the error.

Mike S. said:

IMO, it is so hard because the managers are fearful as well, and you know what flows downhill. As Deming said, it is the responsibility of top management to implement the 14 points. As long as top management instills fear in the managers, nothing will change.

Click to expand...

You're right. When I, as a quality consultant, point my finger at a manager and say 'you must drive out fear', I'm being recursive, right? I'm telling the manager that they are the one to blame. In fact, we are trained from the time we're babies to blame someone when something goes wrong. When a kindergartener spills her milk, she gets blamed. It's hard to overcome that conditioning.

Adam blamed Eve, who blamed Satan.

In the work world, relative to culture, the buck must eventually stop, and IMO it stops at the desk of the "top dog".

Mike S. said:

IMO it stops at the desk of the "top dog"

Click to expand...

A whole other way to look at it (still agreeing with you all)...

The one who consistently stops the bucks and handles the issues........becomes the top dog (or nearby). That approach seemed to work well for me.