Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action (CAPA) - A Definitive Discussion

Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Leader
Super Moderator
Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action

I may be misunderstanding some of the references to my post - but just in case, I'd like to clarify that that is exactly what their form looks like. I didn't insert the stuff in parenthesis, it's on the form.
 
T

Tom W

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action

Not to muddy the waters more than they are - but what about this silly "Corrective Action Impact" that in my opinion makes the definition of Preventive Actions even harder? Any comments on the difference between CAI and PA? :ko: :bonk: :frust:
 
E

energy

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action

Tom W said:
Not to muddy the waters more than they are - but what about this silly "Corrective Action Impact" that in my opinion makes the definition of Preventive Actions even harder? Any comments on the difference between CAI and PA? :ko: :bonk: :frust:

Before I can step in the silt, is CAI particular to a certain industry's requirements? This is the first time I've seen it. Of course, I am out of the loop.:cool:
 
R

Rob Nix

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action

Yeah, energy. QS-9000, 3rd ed., 4.14.2.2 "Corrective Action Impact: Where applicable the supplier shall apply the corrective action taken, and controls implemented, to eliminate the cause of a nonconformity to other similar processes and products." Sounds like "preventive action" to me, but then, what do any of us really know, anyhow? :rolleyes:
 
E

energy

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action

Rob Nix said:
Yeah, energy. QS-9000, 3rd ed., 4.14.2.2 "Corrective Action Impact: Where applicable the supplier shall apply the corrective action taken, and controls implemented, to eliminate the cause of a nonconformity to other similar processes and products." Sounds like "preventive action" to me, but then, what do any of us really know, anyhow? :rolleyes:
That rules out Corrective Actions for one process/product being applied to other processes/product as Preventive. They must have gotten tired of hearing that answer. Very muddy, indeed! :thanx:
 

Peter Fraser

Trusted Information Resource
Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action

Rob Nix said:
Peter,

At one time I used to use terms like "absolutely not" instead of "IMO", and I've got the scars to prove it. When it comes to corrective and preventive actions, and correction vs. corrective action, there are no absolutes.

The ISO standard on the matter is as muddy as it gets. Daniel, Merrriam, and the rest of the Webster family would go bonkers in this field. :bonk:

So the best thing to do is join, as Greg suggests, the Brandy snifting ISO guys and have some light hearted fun with it. And while we're at it, find a system of corrective and preventive actions that suits our business an go with it. :truce: :rolleyes:

Rob

Don't worry, it is fun! I was really having a go at the new ISO9K and how it has made a meal of the subject by making definitions which just serve to confuse. To me, PA is built into planning, tendering, recruitment, process design ...
 
T

Tim Douty

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action

We had the same problem during our implementation phase. The best way I can explain it to you is a corrective action is the result of a nonconformance. When you have a nonconformance the way to "fix" it is to write a corrective action, implement it, and see if the corrective action worked. On the other hand a preventive action is being proactive. You see that a process may have a weakpoint. Therefore you write a preventive action to make others aware be a breakdown in your system appears via an audit.
 
R

Rob Nix

Correction, Corrective Action, & Preventive Action

Due to a recent article I am resurrecting this issue.

It is no wonder that people outside the Quality field consider us nuts. We often use vernacular that is strange to the outsider. The use of “correction”, “corrective action” and “preventive action is a good example.

The March 2004 Quality Digest magazine has an article entitled “Correct Me if I’m Wrong” (pg. 56) by Dan Nelson (which I will because he is). A couple of quotes are as follows:

“You might correct the error [but you are not] taking corrective action… preventing a known problem from recurring is part of corrective action… [AND] preventive actions…don’t prevent existing problems from recurring”.

So correcting something is not corrective action, and preventing something is not preventive action. That’s enough to drive anyone mad.

Webster’s 10th ed. defines things this way: Correct = “To make or set right”, and Prevent = “To meet or satisfy in advance… to keep from happening or existing”.

Prevent me if I’m wrong, but would not correcting an error, say reworking a part, be a CORRECTIVE action, albeit interim or short term? And is not preventing a recurrence, say adding a mistake-proofing mechanism, a PREVENTIVE action, even though it is a long term solution to an existing concern?

I would suppose normal people would think so. But not us Quality Professionals! :bonk:

The way we do it here follows the 8D thinking of years ago. We have short term and long term corrective actions. The long term is generally preventive in nature and we may even state it as such. We save the ISO required/defined “preventive actions” for process improvements, suggestions, and FMEAs.

Notice too that the word is “preventive”, not “preventative” (some people like that extra syllable, “ta”). So anyway, ta ta for now. I won’t try to correct you from replying – or is that, prevent you – I always get that mixed up. :rolleyes:
 
D

David Hartman

Rob Nix said:
Due to a recent article I am resurrecting this issue.

It is no wonder that people outside the Quality field consider us nuts. We often use vernacular that is strange to the outsider. The use of “correction”, “corrective action” and “preventive action is a good example.

The March 2004 Quality Digest magazine has an article entitled “Correct Me if I’m Wrong” (pg. 56) by Dan Nelson (which I will because he is). A couple of quotes are as follows:



So correcting something is not corrective action, and preventing something is not preventive action. That’s enough to drive anyone mad.

Webster’s 10th ed. defines things this way: Correct = “To make or set right”, and Prevent = “To meet or satisfy in advance… to keep from happening or existing”.

Prevent me if I’m wrong, but would not correcting an error, say reworking a part, be a CORRECTIVE action, albeit interim or short term? And is not preventing a recurrence, say adding a mistake-proofing mechanism, a PREVENTIVE action, even though it is a long term solution to an existing concern?

I would suppose normal people would think so. But not us Quality Professionals! :bonk:

The way we do it here follows the 8D thinking of years ago. We have short term and long term corrective actions. The long term is generally preventive in nature and we may even state it as such. We save the ISO required/defined “preventive actions” for process improvements, suggestions, and FMEAs.

Notice too that the word is “preventive”, not “preventative” (some people like that extra syllable, “ta”). So anyway, ta ta for now. I won’t try to correct you from replying – or is that, prevent you – I always get that mixed up. :rolleyes:

I agree, but this is one time I'm not going to take the bait on this discussion. A quick search of the Cove will show that we have discussed this several times previously, and the end result always appears to be an understanding that the solution is possibly beyond reach (no common interpretation has been reached).

In-fact let me take the opportunity to say that this is a good illustration of C.I. Lewis' discussions on "Common Concepts" or the lack thereof. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that there really is a lack of common concept when it comes to discussions related to corrective -Vs- preventive, in that we all seemingly have our own definitions.
 
Rob Nix said:
So anyway, ta ta for now. I won’t try to correct you from replying – or is that, prevent you – I always get that mixed up. :rolleyes:
Great writing Rob... You made my day :D .

First of all we have to prevent bad things from happening.

When they nevertheless do happen, we have to stop them from happening again.

We also have to fix the stuff that turned out bad as a result from our failure to stop things from happening in the first place and/or happening again...

To top it all off we then have to take care of it when it happens again

Small wonder most of us are mentally deranged...:biglaugh:

/Claes
 
Top Bottom