Preventive Action (PA) and Corrective Action (CA) - One or Two Procedures?

I use two procedures. Why? Because corrective actions and preventive actions are two seperate things. Obviously, one is reactive and one is proactive.

Paul

good for you!

But key point = it's your system, not your auditors.

The Standard is about good practice, not rigid rule.

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Here, here!!!! Couldn't have said it better myself. Solid Advice

This was all really great information. I am currently undergoing a registration audit. Our auditor has just cited me for not having the preventive and corrective action procedures seperate. I knew that I had read in the standard somewhere that procedures did not have to be seperate and someone in here helped me find the note. I thought I was out of my mind but I read and reread this standard so much that I couldnt remember where I had seen that. He also cited that we have our preventive actions detailed in our corrective actions. I do agree with him that we do not give ourselves enough credit for the preventive actions that are truly preventive and only give ourselves credit for those that result from correctieve actions but I dont think that I need a nonconformance for not having two procedures.

qualityqueen1974 said:

This was all really great information. I am currently undergoing a registration audit. Our auditor has just cited me for not having the preventive and corrective action procedures seperate. I knew that I had read in the standard somewhere that procedures did not have to be seperate and someone in here helped me find the note. I thought I was out of my mind but I read and reread this standard so much that I couldnt remember where I had seen that. He also cited that we have our preventive actions detailed in our corrective actions. I do agree with him that we do not give ourselves enough credit for the preventive actions that are truly preventive and only give ourselves credit for those that result from correctieve actions but I dont think that I need a nonconformance for not having two procedures.

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I think you might have to separate two thoughts, Ms. Queen. One, the standard allows procedures to be combined, the auditor is incorrect. The current version of the standard does not specifically say it, but one of the changes in the upcoming 2008 version of ISO 9001 makes it more clear -Procedures can be combined.

The other point is cloudy, however. Preventive actyion is not intended to be step 7 of an 8D. Preventive action, according to the standard, looks just like a corrective action, but done ahead of time, proactively, before the failure manifests. (There will be some debate here, let's not hijack this thread). So, if your procedure makes this clear, one procedure can work. If, your procedure just talks about preventive actions coming from preventive actions, the auditor may have a point. They are two different kinds of actions, but can share one procedure. The procedure can explain the difference.

I agree with you.. they should be separate procedures. .

We only document preventive actions when they are part of a corrective actions. We have done several preventive actions that were true preventive however we did not document them on their own form. I dont disagree with him here...we do need to take credit for these good deeds and seperate the form. My procedure is written as "Corrective and Preventive Action". There is a clear seperation in the procedure and a clear definition of each. He has written this as a nonconformance

I've always felt the PCSAM [or modified PCCAM] method is better than PA/CA. The PCCAM method is - Problem [identified] Cause [root, determined] Countermeasure [short-term AND long term - as "solution" or "PA" often implies no further improvement is possible, which is against the Lean theory] Action [what needs to be done to correct] and Measure [verification of successful action].

I've worked with ISO, BABT, and Lean. BABT was by far the...largest paper trail...I've ever had to work within. I think they had stock in paper companies somewhere.

qualityqueen1974 said:

We only document preventive actions when they are part of a corrective actions.

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Your statement goes against the ISO definitions of preventive action and corrective action. Not to beat a dead horse, but once a problem has occurred, you can't do a preventive action on it. The action you take to prevent it from happening is the corrective action.

Corrective action prevents recurrence
Preventive action prevents occurrence

This poll is over 5 years old (started in February 2003). Shall we close it or leave it open?

Poll results to 25June2008 attached.