QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to Do?

How many pages is your QMS Manual?

  • 1 to 5 Pages

    Votes: 6 3.4%
  • 6 to 10 Pages

    Votes: 11 6.3%
  • 11 to 15 Pages

    Votes: 17 9.8%
  • 16 to 20 Pages

    Votes: 21 12.1%
  • 21 to 25 Pages

    Votes: 23 13.2%
  • 25 to 30 Pages

    Votes: 15 8.6%
  • 31 to 35 Pages

    Votes: 16 9.2%
  • 36 to 40 Pages

    Votes: 16 9.2%
  • 41 to 45 Pages

    Votes: 9 5.2%
  • 46 to 50 Pages

    Votes: 9 5.2%
  • 51 to 60 Pages

    Votes: 20 11.5%
  • Resembles Juran's Handbook

    Votes: 7 4.0%
  • We have no manual per se

    Votes: 4 2.3%

  • Total voters
    174
D

dianel

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I have a quality manual that is ONE page long. It was longer when i was QS. When we certified to ISO i made it one page. I Simply hyperlined our "Master quality " process in it which has links to all main procedures......which has links to all processes and work instructions...etc all the way to the form level. I have never had a problem during any certification or survellience audits with it.
 
J

JaneB

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I have a quality manual that is ONE page long. It was longer when i was QS. When we certified to ISO i made it one page. I Simply hyperlined our "Master quality " process in it which has links to all main procedures......which has links to all processes and work instructions...etc all the way to the form level. I have never had a problem during any certification or survellience audits with it.

Sounds good.

But I disagree that your 'one page' is the manual itself. The whole thing is 'the manual'.

Saying that one page with its hyperlinks = the whole manual is about as sensible as saying that a Table of Contents (or Index, which some people call it) equals the manual. It doesn't - but it does outline the structure and where to find the content (and in a hyperlinked online structure, enable rapid access to relevant content).
 
P

Pennington

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I agree
JaneB
The whole thing is 'the manual'.
thats why its called a manual. If the writers of ISO 9001 had specified a summary, an overview, a synopsis etc these would have been the words used. But they didn't. They specified a manual ie a set of instrutions, handbook,
ISO 9000:2005
specifying the quality management system of an organization
Therefore if its not in the manual its not part of the system.
 

Peter Fraser

Trusted Information Resource
Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I agree thats why its called a manual. If the writers of ISO 9001 had specified a summary, an overview, a synopsis etc these would have been the words used. But they didn't. They specified a manual ie a set of instrutions, handbook,
Therefore if its not in the manual its not part of the system.

Goodness, what a generous interpretation! ISO9001 (4.2.1) lists many things to be included in the documented system - and a "manual" is only one of the elements. And 4.2.2 lists the few items which a manual must contain. So it can indeed be a very brief summary. (Mind you, if it is produced in such a format, I for one don't see the point of it...)
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

Why?
I have said it before and no doubt will say it again. :notme: IMHO the requirements of ISO 9001 (or any other management system) have no place in a document intended for people working in the system. The manual has two purposes.
  1. To fulfil the requirements of the requirements standards (i.e. 4.2.2)
  2. Give an overview of the management system


IMHO the purpose is to communicate the requirements, expectations and policies. Please, don't write a manual because the standard says so.

If you state a commitment to meet the requirements of the standard in your policy, then you need to communicate what those requirements are. My point is you can do it in procedures or a manual or wherever.

In my example, I am not "regurgitating the standard. But, my template begins with it (actually I use ISO 9004), and I rewrite it into an easy to understand handbook which expalins what is required.


A cross reference may be useful somewhere to show that all requirements have been covered - the organisation's call.

How do you decide how long the manual is going to be before you have designed the system? (Although see later for the comment on 'length' of manual). The general point is in designing a system the format shouldn't come before the content.

Does this not mean they will also have a lot of stuff in the 30 pages that has no meaning for them and they have to wade through the chaff to get to 'their' wheat?

One has to define the format before one begins to write. The number of pages won't be determined until I finish, and is irrelevant. As far as wadinig through the wheat and chaff...we make that a hyperlinked table of contents and an index. Very easy to go directly to the section you need.

A cross reference would also work. But, haven't you seen people fumbling to find something, opening this docuemnt and that, before finding the info they seek. It's a lot of work.

As has been covered ad infinitum the requirements standards are irrelevant so long as the management system addresses the documentation requirements. The purpose of a documented system is to describe what the organisation does and this should automatically meet the requirements of the relevant standard(s).

Wow...the requirements are irrelevant...is that why auditors write so many nonconformities when the "irrelevant requirements" are not met? How can employees know the requirements if they are not spelled out at some level.

In actuality, the standard requires that all requirements are met - those of the standard, the organization, and legal and other requirements - all must be met.

I agree with the principle that size doesn't matter but it is what you do with it that counts!:lol:

Well, at we agree on that one point...
 
D

dianel

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I guess i should rephrase my answer. "My document that reflects all ISO requirements for a Quality Policy Manual and is called a "Quality Policy Manual" and is one page long. In addition, I doubt except for the sign offs, that i have been the only one besides the auditor to even look at it. So what is the point of putting all of the time and effort in it. Keep it simple. The value is in the guts of the system.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I guess i should rephrase my answer. "My document that reflects all ISO requirements for a Quality Policy Manual and is called a "Quality Policy Manual" and is one page long. In addition, I doubt except for the sign offs, that i have been the only one besides the auditor to even look at it. So what is the point of putting all of the time and effort in it. Keep it simple. The value is in the guts of the system.

The reason no one looks at it is because it does not say anything. If you put meat into it, then people will read it.

If your manual only "reflects all ISO requirements," do you at least define the requirements in other documents?
 
D

dianel

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

Oh yes. I dont see value in repeating the standard in the manual.
 
P

Pennington

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

It is clear that ISO 9001 is unclear don't you think? And here is the proof:
9001 Clause 4.2.1 requires the QMS documentation to include a quality manual, policy, objectives, procedures records and process documentation. (but excludes process interactions and org charts )
9001 Clause 4.2.2 defines what is to be included in the 9001 quality manual - scope, procedures, description of process interactions (but excludes policy, objectives and records, org charts and process documentation)
9000 Clause 3.7.4 defines what a quality manual is - simply a document specifying the QMS which could be all of the above (in engineering terms; all the specs, drawings, schedules, instructions to implement and operate the QMS)
9000 Clause 3.7.2 says "that documents that provide consistent information, both internally and externally, about the organization's quality management system; such documents are referred to as quality manuals;" So this might be anything
9000 Clause 3.3.2 says "A formal expression of the organizational structure is often provided in a quality manual" (Hence why clause 4.2.2 is not limiting
9000 clause 3.7.5 says "A quality plan often makes reference to parts of the quality manual" Implies the manual is a reference document.
Neither ISO 9000 nor 9001 imply or require the quality manual to include or even refer to the requirements of ISO 9001. These standards also do not require a quality policy that expressses a specific commitment to meet the requirements of ISO 9001. A commitment to meet requirements yes, but these are customer and regulatory requirements.

When you approach the development of a QMS from the direction of ISO 9001 you will run into the type of problem we are debating. If you approach the development of a QMS from what the business needs in order to consistently produce product that meets customer requirements, you only get around to looking at ISO 9001 after you have a capable system and want independent certification. By that time you will have a system description that fulfils a business need and this you can present as your quality manual be it one page, or 5000 pages. The business drives the QMS not ISO 9001, this is simply an assessment standard as is clearly stated in clause 0.1. It does not say that ISO 9001 can be used to develop a QMS.
 
D

dianel

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

:applause:
 
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