QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to Do?

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

Paul Simpson said:

People don't need to know what a 'standard' requires them to do in their daily jobs. They need to know what their prganisation expects them to do - full stop, period, point!

... The skill of the quality professional (as I have said 431 times before) is to take ISO standards, read through ISO speak and assess: 'What does this mean for my organisation?' and then go about explaining to the folks in his / her organisation what changes need to be made - if any.

If we go about documenting an 'ISO' system rather than the organisation's real management system then we are doomed to be 'the document guys and gals' and all we are there to do is defend the documented system against the invading (barbarian ) hordes of auditors - not a job I want.

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Me neither!

Paul Simpson said:

There are plenty of things that need documenting but, for example (at random): 'It is Joe Bloggs Ltd.'s policy to ensure that we maintain the infrastructure necessary to ensure product is manufactured in accordance with ... blah, blah, blah ... is not one of them and therefore has no place in a manual.

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No, it doesn't. After all, if the organisation has formally committed to a QMS that meets ISO 9001, that covers it. What on earth then is the point of then repeating all the detail of the standard with 'Joe Bloggs Ltd's policy is' in front of it?

It's a quality management system we're after. And the system consists of more than just documentaitn. It's not a 'document everything' or a system of documentation. Yes, doco is required. Yes, there's a need to write stuff down. But what, how and how much is an individual decision.
I prefer an approach that recognises it's a management system to the one that wants to write down (re-interpreted or otherwise) every single requirement.

Ultimately it needs to work for the individual organisation in their context, with their customers, their unique needs and their products/services and resources. There isn't (and shouldn't) be any 'one size fits all'.

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

JaneB said:

...Yes, doco is required...

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That must be in the Australian version of the standard. The only place I've ever seen the term "doco" used is in your posts.

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

howste said:

That must be in the Australian version of the standard. The only place I've ever seen the term "doco" used is in your posts.

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Yup. Showing the Aussie tendency to contract long words (and oddly enough, to lengthen very short ones. So 'David' becames 'Dave' but as 'Rob' is already shortened, it often becomes 'Robbo' or 'Robbie'. Really.)

(Actually, in my case, just laziness: saves extra typing).

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

Dawn said:

I have created a quality manual for our company which is 40 pages. It simply covers every element with a paragragh or so, except for Management Responsibility is covered in the manual instead of a procedure.
My superiors feel the manual should only be 3 or 4 pages long. Most of this reasoning is from different companies who have claimed to be certified.
Am I wrong in assuming a 3 or 4 page manual would not be adequate, and what exactly would be accurate?
Thanks, Dawn

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After reading another thread about what should be included in a QM, I came across this old thread.....................OH HOW THINGS HAVE CHANGED !!!!!(for the better)

I wonder if we ran this poll again in 2010 how the figures would of altered, would the majority still be between 30 - 60 pages
Cxx

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

ChrissieO said:

After reading another thread about what should be included in a QM, I came across this old thread.....................OH HOW THINGS HAVE CHANGED !!!!!(for the better)

I wonder if we ran this poll again in 2010 how the figures would of altered, would the majority still be between 30 - 60 pages
Cxx

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Agree! Mine is 6 pages, mostly big lettering and pictures. The auditor loves it.

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

LexieB said:

Agree! Mine is 6 pages, mostly big lettering and pictures. The auditor loves it.

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Is that the same auditor we've heard about who writes reports in crayon because the bosses don't want the auditor to have anything sharp?

Is it true the auditor also carries a supply of gold stars and happy face stickers?

Is that the same auditor whose boss says the best lunch or snack is peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and Oreo cookies to dip in a mug of milk?

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

Wes Bucey said:

Is that the same auditor we've heard about who writes reports in crayon because the bosses don't want the auditor to have anything sharp?

Is it true the auditor also carries a supply of gold stars and happy face stickers?

Is that the same auditor whose boss says the best lunch or snack is peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and Oreo cookies to dip in a mug of milk?

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I wish!

Basically I cut out all the stuff from the manual that is covered elsewhere and made an intricate flowchart of how the business processes interact. It's actually a lot of information, just in the most concise way possible. All of our key processes are listed, which of course trickle down to procedures and forms. It works for us.

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

LexieB said:

I wish!

Basically I cut out all the stuff from the manual that is covered elsewhere and made an intricate flowchart of how the business processes interact. It's actually a lot of information, just in the most concise way possible. All of our key processes are listed, which of course trickle down to procedures and forms. It works for us.

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It would be interesting to get this thread going again. I am in the process of putting together my AS9100 Rev C manual and procedures. There are only 3 things required within a manual, which I have managed to cover in 2 pages. My procedures then detail each aspect of the clauses. I do not understand why most manuals cover each clause verbatum, then the same is repeated in each of the procedures!!

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

Phiobi said:

It would be interesting to get this thread going again.

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I concur. I'm currently involved with helping along the creation of a QM for ISO9001. My company is using the advice of someone not up to date with the "new" ISO styles. This person is insisting on a 35+ page QM, when I have effectively done the same thing on ~13 pages. Its very frustrating to deal with people like this.

Edit: A new poll as mentioned above would be great. It'd be nice to see how much it has changed from the past years.

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

rfjuice said:

I concur. I'm currently involved with helping along the creation of a QM for ISO9001. My company is using the advice of someone not up to date with the "new" ISO styles. This person is insisting on a 35+ page QM, when I have effectively done the same thing on ~13 pages. Its very frustrating to deal with people like this.

Edit: A new poll as mentioned above would be great. It'd be nice to see how much it has changed from the past years.

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Well, I think I am very "up" on new ISO thinking and styles, and just finished a 50 page quality manual for a small ISO 9001 company. It is based on ISO 9004, not ISO 9001, and I am very pleased with the results. Since I encourage my clients to read and use ISO 9004, it sort of forces them to use it, because it is right in theiir manual. It also greatly reduces the number of pages we devote to procedures, because most of what they need is in the manual.

I'll bet the total number of documents and pages in my system will be less than in your system, even though the manual has more pages. Why focusing on pages seems important is beyond me. Focus on content and useful information, instead.