% of Contribution or % of Study Variation? Gage R&R using Minitab

L

Laura O

Re: % of Contribution or % of Study Variation? Using Minitab - Gage R&R

A small point of clarification: this applies to variables studies (GR&R), but not attributes MSA, for which there are times when modifying parts is necessary.
We do modify parts for GR&R so that we can test the range of the gage. I don't know if this is correct or not, but if your parts don't use the range, how do you know if the gage would be good if the parts did go to the ends of their range? I am not trying to disagree, I am trying to understand.

We have had parts with a tolerance of +/- 1.5 but only vary +/- 0.25 during GR&R.

What would be the solution?

I can't be the only one confused by this. The more I find out, the less I seem to know.

Thank you in advance for your help. :)
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Leader
Admin
Testing parts to the limit of the range should be done as part of a Bias/Linearity study, not as part of an R&R study.

The impact of modifying parts on the R&R results depends on the use to which you are putting the gauge and the appropriate metric. If the gauge is to be an inspection device and you are using % Tolerance as the metric, modifying the parts will have no effect on the metric. If however, the gauge is to be used for process control, and you are using % Study Variation or ndc then modifying the parts will affect the metrics INVALIDATING the results. If you use the historical process standard deviation and use % Process Variation as the metric then the %R&R will be valid.

I recommend that you read my blog on MSA studies. I cover Bias/Linearity studies and R&R studies as well as part selection among others.
 
J

JackM

This question is for everyone. What are the units of percent? It is my understanding that there are no units. That being the case, why does everyone dismiss % Contribution and jump to % Study Variation and % Tolerance. It is stated that coverting to standard deviation puts it in the same units of your measurement - however - you lose the proportionality and the columns do NOT add up to 100%. Shouldn't that concern people?

If you had part variation in your study that matched exactly your tolerance spread, then the Variance of Part-toPart Variation would equate to the tolerance. If you then divided the Variance of Total Gage R&R by the Variance of Part-to-Part Variation, you would then have a PROPORTIONAL value that would represent a true % Tolerance. Find a Gage R&R where your part variation equaled or almost equaled the tolerance spread. Divide the Variances of Total Gage R&R by the Part-to-Part Variation and compare that to the caluated % Tolerance using Standard Deviations. Do they even come close?

People have been following the guidelines for so long, they are unwilling to listen to any alternative view.
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Leader
Super Moderator
Jack - welcome to the cove! :bigwave:

not sure of your question. There are many threads and posts here discussing the weakness of the traditional gage R&R and many who support alternate methods...so if you can clarify your question?
 
J

JackM

Hello Bev,

I can now understand your confusion. The "question" referred to the next sentence - but - there were also many other questions to follow. I should have left out the first sentence altogether (This question is for everyone.). Sorry for the confusion.
 

Statistical Steven

Statistician
Leader
Super Moderator
This question is for everyone. What are the units of percent? It is my understanding that there are no units. That being the case, why does everyone dismiss % Contribution and jump to % Study Variation and % Tolerance. It is stated that coverting to standard deviation puts it in the same units of your measurement - however - you lose the proportionality and the columns do NOT add up to 100%. Shouldn't that concern people?

If you had part variation in your study that matched exactly your tolerance spread, then the Variance of Part-toPart Variation would equate to the tolerance. If you then divided the Variance of Total Gage R&R by the Variance of Part-to-Part Variation, you would then have a PROPORTIONAL value that would represent a true % Tolerance. Find a Gage R&R where your part variation equaled or almost equaled the tolerance spread. Divide the Variances of Total Gage R&R by the Part-to-Part Variation and compare that to the caluated % Tolerance using Standard Deviations. Do they even come close?

People have been following the guidelines for so long, they are unwilling to listen to any alternative view.
Jack

Excellent view on the subject. The issue I find is that IF your part to part is small (does not capture the specification), then your metric is over stating the capability of the gage. But if we have tolerance, then we do not need to take the proportion of the measurement variation to part variation, since the specification perform that duty. If you want units, then take your % of tolerance and multiple it with your spec width. Then you have units of uncertainty.
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Leader
Super Moderator
What are the units of percent? It is my understanding that there are no units. That being the case, why does everyone dismiss % Contribution and jump to % Study Variation and % Tolerance. It is stated that coverting to standard deviation puts it in the same units of your measurement - however - you lose the proportionality and the columns do NOT add up to 100%. Shouldn't that concern people?
it concerns many people (although not AIAG apparently). See the works of Donald Wheeler for example. there are also many posts here discussing this concern.
It doesn't concern people who just want to 'check the box'. that includes suppliers and customers...
% contribution and % study variation are actually the same thing when the study is properly conducted - the math is a little different but the correct math is an estimate anyway so the difference has no practical impact. As you say, to have a real percent you must have the same units in the numerator and denominator. AIAG violates this law of mathematics in it's %tolerance. And it all started in a paper published in the early sixties by Robert Traver titled "The Rubber ruler"...
This is like any other 'time-honored' practice - since we've always done it that way we can continue doing it that way. Is that wrong? yes. is it laziness? yes. is it in direct conflict with the alleged intent of quality improvement, continual improvement and advances in science in engineering? yep.

If you had part variation in your study that matched exactly your tolerance spread, then the Variance of Part-toPart Variation would equate to the tolerance. If you then divided the Variance of Total Gage R&R by the Variance of Part-to-Part Variation, you would then have a PROPORTIONAL value that would represent a true % Tolerance. Find a Gage R&R where your part variation equaled or almost equaled the tolerance spread. Divide the Variances of Total Gage R&R by the Part-to-Part Variation and compare that to the caluated % Tolerance using Standard Deviations. Do they even come close?
yes this is a viable approach. what about acceptance criteria? is the percent 10%, 20% 30% (these are just rules of thumb, randomly selected by some unknown group of people. they were never derived. they have no basis in science or statistics. they have no more informative or scientific value than a p-value of less than .05.
we must also acknowledge that the overall standard deviation is highly effected by the selection bias of the parts that span the tolerance range. If these parts do not have the same distribution as the underlying process then the SD will either be overestimated or underestimated...

[/QUOTE]
 

New to statistics

Involved In Discussions
To check whether you have a measurement system issue or a part selection issue you could calculate the GRR% using a historical standard deviation (of the process).
Can you explain it, please or an example maybe?
Since the tolerance width is much broader than the part variation the GRR% (%Tol) is acceptable with 6.1% < 10%. You can distinguish between good parts and bad parts and use this measurement system for part selection
Tolerance is 1.0 part variation ?
Thank you
 
Top Bottom