Records required by TS16949 - I have identified 26, are there more?

AndyN said:

Now c'mon, 'H'. You know that there's the minimum required records (and if you go more than that it's O.K)

Andy

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Their truly are no discussions during my audits about what the "minimum number of records would be. Never comes up. I did not even know anyone came up with a number of "minimum" required records.

I stand by my answer. The standard says those records needed "to provide evidence of conformity ...and effective...etc."

No discussion of a minimum.

Also, remember, I regularly dispute that the standard states there are a "magic 6 or 7 procedures" either. (4.2.1 c and d clearly say those docs needed by the organization...) The standard just mentions 6 that must be included.

Those who know me, know that the word "minimum" has little relevance to how I work...

If the external auditor asks to see a list of the records you keep & you produce a minimal list, (obviously there may be records kept which are not on this list, but the list could be entitled Quality records for TS16949 compliance) surely you are minimizing the potential for nonconformity?

nonaynever said:

If the external auditor asks to see a list of the records you keep & you produce a minimal list, (obviously there may be records kept which are not on this list, but the list could be entitled Quality records for TS16949 compliance) surely you are minimizing the potential for nonconformity?

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You can say, "I don't have a list" because there's no requirement for a list. Then you can ask the auditor if he had a specific record in mind that he'd like to see (thereby asking him to do his job, which is auditing.) If you get too legalistic about this, you run the risk of allowing the tail to wag the dog. The system produces documentation, not the other way around.

nonaynever said:

If the external auditor asks to see a list of the records you keep & you produce a minimal list, (obviously there may be records kept which are not on this list, but the list could be entitled Quality records for TS16949 compliance) surely you are minimizing the potential for nonconformity?

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If an auditor wants to see my list of all documents, I just show my computer master file list for each category of types of documents. This is one big Excel file that is sorted and filtered, and hyperlinked by types of documents, and only controlled by me and my master computer files.
Did not have any issues with it during my last 3 audits.

nonaynever said:

If the external auditor asks to see a list of the records you keep & you produce a minimal list, (obviously there may be records kept which are not on this list, but the list could be entitled Quality records for TS16949 compliance) surely you are minimizing the potential for nonconformity?

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Is your system's purpose to minimize nonconformities, or to provide a maximized, optimal management environment?

Jim Wynne said:

You can say, "I don't have a list" because there's no requirement for a list. Then you can ask the auditor if he had a specific record in mind that he'd like to see (thereby asking him to do his job, which is auditing.) If you get too legalistic about this, you run the risk of allowing the tail to wag the dog. The system produces documentation, not the other way around.

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I always agreed with this but we had a discussion on this once (which I cannot find) where it was said that the requirement exists here
4.2.4

A documented procedure shall be established to define the controls needed for the identification,storage, protection, retrieval, retention time and disposition of records.

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We have an auditor that the first thing he does is to check the list according to his list.
This is to ensure that 4.2.1

e) records required by this International Standard (see 4.2.4).

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is controlled.

I had prepared a list of documents and records required by 16949
(excluding customer specified).Pl see attachment.

I have attached an extensive list of records - most of them required by ISO TS - and I have added the area where the records can be found in the company.

You can use whatever part you feel comfortable with.

Best regards,

Antoine

Does anyone know if AIAG types have a time of retention for 1018, 1010 cold rolled steel coils etc. and their chemical makeup? We are qs16949 but need a CYA answer for how long a cetificate that corresponds with a heat treat number and ship lot for a coil needs to be stored. we are keeping 1 yr. in drawer and 1 year in archive. Can we ignor GM 3-2006 page 8 requirement of 15 years?

Thanks

Well, I can honestly tell you that our heat/heat treat information has to be kept as long each division is in operation and then go to corporate for the rest of its life. This is a corporate mandate. It is not unheard of for automobiles to last longer that 15 years.