Informational Re-engineering of the IAF Accreditation and the Management System Certification Processes

Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

Stijloor said:

But I am curious; in your opinion, what would be the Top Three changes that the Accreditation Bodies should implement to improve the credibility of the (1) the AB's themselves and (2) the Certification Bodies?

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The AB’s have to realize that they need to be accountable to the users of accredited management system certification. To that effect, they need to engage themselves with transparency when suppliers certified under their accredited scheme are caught with obvious and blatant low performing systems. They need to make the feedback and complaint process much more user friendly and transparent. They need to depart from the bureaucratic mind-set they have at present and welcome user feedback. They need to educate Industry and Society at large about how accreditation brings confidence to the process.

They have to improve tremendously the competence of their own personnel. Just like we have too many incompetent auditors working for Certification Bodies, there are AB auditors out there that have no idea of the damage they inflict without any payback in terms of credibility and confidence on the performance of the CB’s.

They need to influence the revision of documents such as ISO/IEC 17021 and 19011 to change dramatically the competence requirements and qualifications expected from management system auditors. They need to force the CB’s to understand the meaning of the word MANAGEMENT in Management System Standards. And perform audits accordingly. Moronic and gutless auditors have to be filtered out of the system.

But the biggest problem is the cultural mismatch. Many of the decision makers in this process don’t have the intellectual ability to think out of the box they have created. So, we end up having “patches” that attempt to hide structural problems.

As you can tell, I don’t believe we will find easy, quick solutions. But the current CEO of ANAB will be retiring later this year. They are seeking a replacement….

Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

ABs, CBs, value addition through accreditated certificates, issue of making money through unaccreditated certificates, system dilution.... nice to hear that these issues have opened up at least for discussion.

What happens when one of the largest and oldest multi - accreditated CB in India is discovered to be issuing unaccreditated cerificates? Nothing. Some irritated competitors think of complaining to NABCB - the Indian AB. They are promptly told, dont expect any action. The AB is just forming. These people are founder members. Anyway, they have not misused our accreditation.

Well, they have not misused any accreditation! They just havent used any!!

Why did they do that? Because they didnt have any accreditation for that particular scope. And they couldnt twist and tweak the scope to fit it into something else. If they could do it, they would have.

Out of the box thinking? Theres plenty of it. Only its going in the wrong direction. It is also dragging everything down with it.

IAOB tried to bypass the ABs. It was a good message. But the message is lost. IAOB managed to do no better controlling of the process. How many cases do we know of people having a QS certification but failing to graduate to TS? There was a tight control on auditor quality to begin with. But as the time pressure built up, all strings were loosened and now we havee people who didnt have a scope to audit automotive as ISO lead auditors romping around as TS lead auditors.

The revolution is unlikely to come unless ISO / IAF / CBs all come together and scrap all existing certifications on a cut off date and ask all and sundry to requalify for a fresh certification under a fresh control regime with freshly qualified ABs, freshly qualified CBs, and freshly qualified auditors.

Seems unlikely.

The evolution would come too slowly for our lifetime. ISO certification would lose its relevance. It will qualify as a paper on the wall that serves as a single entry visa to any purchase office. Period.

This is a global phenomenon. unfortunately a change in the ANAB top brass wont suffice to bring around a major revolution.

Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

Some good news.

The much maligned (by me, who else!) NABCB - our Indian AB has suspended accreditation of two CBs. Reaccreditation decision is withheld for one CB. One more CB has 'voluntarily' suspended accreditation - with advice not to resume without clearance from NABCB (a sort of 'honorary' exit?)

As the McDonald's catch phrase here goes - I'm loving it!!

Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

potdar said:

The much maligned (by me, who else!) NABCB - our Indian AB has suspended accreditation of two CBs. Reaccreditation decision is withheld for one CB. One more CB has 'voluntarily' suspended accreditation - with advice not to resume without clearance from NABCB (a sort of 'honorary' exit?)

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The information is available @ (broken link removed)
And, for those who like to see more transparency in the process, the new ANAB online directory of accredited CBs makes more difficult to find out the status of CB accreditation. For example, a CB has voluntarily suspended their AS9100 accreditation recently, but to find that information, one has to dig for it.

Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

From https://www.compad.com.au/cms/iaf/public/224

we have access to some material used during some recent IAF Industry days. As usual, Mr. Croft's presentation seems to be the most interesting one.

In March 2007 IAF held its first ever Industry Day which was convened to enable users of accredited third party certification to discuss with IAF their problems and their successes. This unprecedented forum debated whether improvements were necessary to make the accredited certification system more relevant to the changing needs and expectations of industry. Hosted by the ANSI-ASQ National Accreditation Board (ANAB) and welcomed by Bob King, President of ANAB, the forum heard presentations from a range of sectors covering aerospace, automotive, chemicals, information technology, medical devices, telecommunications and petroleum. It was generally acknowledged by most participants that user expectations had changed since the advent of certification some twenty years ago, and rather than just assessing the compliance of the client's management system there was now a recognition of the need to consider its effectiveness, as "output does matter".

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To coincide with meetings of the IAF Executive, the China National Accreditation Service (CNAS) and IAF hosted the second Industry Day in early June in Beijing. Opened by Mr Li Changjiang, the Minister of the General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine of the Peoples' Republic of China (AQSIQ), this forum was strongly supported by both the Government of the PRC, industry representatives and the Certification Bodies. Attendees received presentations on the effectiveness and expectations of quality and environmental management systems in the electrical appliance, automotive and computer manufacturing industries.
Planning is currently underway for a third Industry Day which is expected to be held in Europe around November, possibly in Brussels to enable direct interaction with the European Commission. Further to this, it is intended that participants at the Industry Day Forums will be invited to become members of the new IAF End-user Advisory Committee with the aim of helping IAF to better develop future accreditation criteria to meet the expected outcomes of industry and their customers.

IAF-ANAB Industry Day Presentations - 28 March 2007, San Francisco, USA ​

1. ISO 9000 Advisory Group's Preception of Permuatations of Good and Bad Performance - Dr Nigel Croft, Co-chair ISO 9000 Advisory Group & ISO/TC 176 Liaison to IAF
2. International Automotive Task Force (IATF) Approaches IAF Should Consider - Joseph Bransky, General Motors representative, International Automotive Oversight Bureau
3. Aerospace Supplier Expectations - Tim Lee, Chair, Americas Aerospace Quality Group RMC
4. Seeking Approaches for Success; Customers, Concerns and Corrective Action - Usha Shah, Motorola (QuEST Forum representative)
5. Information Technology Expectations - Wanda Sarti, ISO Systems Management Standards Program Manager, IBM Corporate
6. Lanxcess and the American Chemistry Council - Randall Dearth, President and CEO, Lanxcess Corp.
7. Petrobras's Experience on the Effectiveness of Accredited ISO 9001 Certification - Luis Carlos Nascimento, Consoltor de Negocio, Petrobras

8. ENEL Contribution to the Improvement of the Italian Certification System - Carmine Reda, ENEL S.p.A​

IAF-CNAS China Day Presentations - 9 June 2007, Beijing, China ​

1. Speakers Biographical Summaries
2. IAF Strategic Plan to Identify and Achieve Expectations of Users of Certified Organizations - Dr. Thomas Facklam, Chair, IAF
3. Administration and Accreditation Approach for Management System Certification in China - Mr. Sun Dawei, Chief Administrator, Certification and Accreditation Administration of PRC (CNCA)
4. Transcend ISO 9000 and Persue Excellent Operation - Mr Cao Chunhua, Vice President, Haier Group Company
5. Performance and Expectations of Global Auto Quality System Certification - Mr. Chen Yinda, Vice President, Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation (Group)
6. Lenovo Group's Results and Expectations of Quality Management System Certification - Mr. Du Jianhua, Vice President, Lenovo Group
7. Environmental Management System Certification and Environmental Protection - Mr. Luo Yi, Deputy Director General, Department of Science, Technology and Standards, State Environmental Protection Administration of PRC (SEPA)
8. Implementing ISO14000 Environmental Standard & Encouraging SND's Sustainable Development - Mr. Jiang Jianqing, Director, Environmental Protection Bureau, Suzhou National New & Hi-Tech Industrial Development Zone (SND)
9. Study on the Contribution of Certification to Economic Growth - Survey From Certified Companies in Guangdong - Madame Tang Xiaofen, President, Shanghai Academy of Quality Management
10. Discussion of the Effectiveness of Certification - Mr. Lang Zhizheng, Counselor, State Council & Professor, Beijing Institute of Technology

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Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

Sidney Vianna said:

Reason to be hopeful? Or not? Can the same minds re-engineer the archaic accreditation and certification processes, presently deployed?
From https://www.qualitydigest.com/currentmag/news.shtml#1 (dynamic link, subject to change next month)

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New link is https://www.qualitydigest.com/may07/news.shtml#1

Stijloor said:

What do other Covers suggest?

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Not many takers?

Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

potdar said:

unfortunately a change in the ANAB top brass wont suffice to bring around a major revolution.

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I beg to differ. If we had someone knowledgeable, insightful, forceful, with enough charisma and wits as the top dog in one of the major AB's posts, such as ANAB, UKAS, RvA, etc... that individual could instigate a lot of change. The problem is the fact that most people selected for those positions have to be senior mature enough to satisfy the board. And, most people close to their retirement age don't want to rock the boat, since they need only a few more years to start enjoying their benefits.

Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

I would nominate you and Randy. It wouldn't take long to shake up the system. ;-)

Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

ralphsulser said:

I would nominate you and Randy. It wouldn't take long to shake up the system. ;-)

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Thanks. Too bad there is no election for that position/job. Whomever they pick should be willing to make some serious waves, if they really want to promote accountability and confidence in the accreditation process. However, I suspect, the criteria for the selection includes being well groomed, very political, "suave", smooth, well connected, etc...;rock the boat is not in ANAB's agenda, I suspect. And the hard lessons are not learnt. Automotive already jumped ship. Telecom is not happy...

Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

Sidney Vianna said:

I beg to differ. If we had someone knowledgeable, insightful, forceful, with enough charisma and wits as the top dog in one of the major AB's posts, such as ANAB, UKAS, RvA, etc... that individual could instigate a lot of change. The problem is the fact that most people selected for those positions have to be senior mature enough to satisfy the board. And, most people close to their retirement age don't want to rock the boat, since they need only a few more years to start enjoying their benefits.

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You said it. The big IF which carries an even bigger BUT.

Thats why I say that a revolution is unlikely and an evolution, if at all, will be too slow for our lifetimes.

I believe all and sundry of the covers will welcome a revolution, if it does come around by some miracle.