Choosing a Registrar - Registrar Recommendations

The truth is that organizations have inadequate information or knowledge about registrars/CBs out there. Organization would follow what their consultant’s recommendation. I’ve seen it happen many times.

Fortunately, cove contains all the essential information we need to get started in our quest for quality.

Dear Folks,

Please reveal your experience with a registrar. This way, we could choose one that is, with integrity and proven track record.

It will be very hard for me to find best registrar/cb by myself.

dQApprentice said:

The truth is that organizations have inadequate information or knowledge about registrars/CBs out there. Organization would follow what their consultant’s recommendation. I’ve seen it happen many times.

Fortunately, cove contains all the essential information we need to get started in our quest for quality.

Dear Folks,

Please reveal your experience with a registrar. This way, we could choose one that is, with integrity and proven track record.

It will be very hard for me to find best registrar/cb by myself.

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I'm not sure that you can find 'the best' CB if you have no previous experience. It's a relationship which develops and part of this is how you relate to the CB. There are many out there, some with a lot of experience, many excellent auditors and great support staff. There are some who should be avoided, but the clients still use them because they don't know any better or have it 'easy'

There is a lot of information available to you. There are thousands of registered companies - no doubt your customers and suppliers are using CB's so why not ask them? Are there CB's which have a strong presence in your industry - for example, mine NQA, is very strong in the AS9100 world in the USA. VCA is strong in the auto industry around ISO/TS 16949.

If you choose a CB and the results aren't what you expected and you feel unable to work with them, you can change - often at little or no cost.

There should be no mystery to slecting a CB or maintianing a relationship - we are suppliers of a service, just as you already use. Look at the process/criteria you currently use for selection of a supplier and then how you maintain relationships. Does that help you?

AndyN said:

we are suppliers of a service, just as you already use. Look at the process/criteria you currently use for selection of a supplier and then how you maintain relationships.

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I have a slightly different take. While we are (typically) contracted by the registrants, and we are a supplier of a service, I don't think that the relationship an organization has with their chosen CB is akin to the other suppliers. While CB's most definitely need to be concerned with customer satisfaction and deliver their part of the contractual arrangement, the relationship between the CB and their customers is somewhat different because a CB must maintain the integrity of the process, EVEN when that means dissatisfying a customer. In extreme cases, a CB must de-certify a customer when the situation requires and justifies it. A de-certification proceeding means basically the ceasing of the business relationship; and in the business world, situations where a supplier disqualifies a customer (other than for credit reasons) are rare. The relationship between a CB and their customers is unusual to a point that ANAB has issued a (broken link removed)

While the audit process might bring value to the registrants, the actual users of the certificates issued by the CB's are the registrants' customers and other stakeholders.

There are several threads that deal with a CB selection process criteria. Craig Cochran had this article, a few years back.

When it comes to QUALITY management system certificates, such as ISO 9001, TS-16949, AS9100, TL-9000, ISO 13485, etc... one of the basic questions one should ask is: Would any of my customers object to any of the CB's I am currently considering? At the end of the day, the vast majority of organizations seek certification to satisfy customer demands. Make sure none of the potential CB's you are considering are "black-listed" by any of the certification-requiring customers.

Interesting take, Sidney. I read what you say, but don't entirely go along with it.

Having come from a supply chain management position to the CB world, I don't see any difference in the relationship. My suppliers provided parts and services which were, ultimately, passed on to our customers, in much the same way as the certification is represented 'down stream' - so is there any real difference? Does a registrant company's customer really care that much about who their supplier chooses? If so, then I'd wager certain CB's would have been forced out a while ago!

If I have good supplier relationships then I'll work with my chosen CB and understand that I may have to be 'read the riot act' on occasion. Also, since certification is no longer as significant a differentiator, surely the biggest benefit from using a CB must be internally to the registrant company?

AndyN said:

Interesting take, Sidney. I read what you say, but don't entirely go along with it.

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I know, many times, I feel like the lone wolf, totally ISO-lated from my counterparts in the certification sector. I shout and scream that, instead of a customer's satisfaction survey, Quality Digest (or any other publication), should do a registrant's customer satisfaction survey on value of certificates. Because THIS is what will indicate the long term sustainability of management system certification.

AndyN said:

Having come from a supply chain management position to the CB world, I don't see any difference in the relationship. My suppliers provided parts and services which were, ultimately, passed on to our customers, in much the same way as the certification is represented 'down stream' - so is there any real difference?

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Just the fact that a CB must satisfy their customers WHILE complying with accreditation requirements, makes for a very different relationship in my opinion. There are CLEAR conflicting points between the accreditation mandates and customer expectations. A simple example is the amount of time an audit team should spend at the site, during an audit. CB's have to balance both stakeholder expectations. In my personal opinion, due to the competitive nature of the certification business, CB's, in general, are excessively focused on the immediate paying customers and, to an extent, disregarding the expectations of other stakeholders. Some of the questioning about the integrity of the 3rd party certification concept can be attributed to this aspect, if you ask me.

AndyN said:

Does a registrant company's customer really care that much about who their supplier chooses? If so, then I'd wager certain CB's would have been forced out a while ago!

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I am sure you have noticed that, since it's inception, the Aerospace ICOP scheme has disapproved a number of CB's. The Automotive IATF scheme has significantly reduced the number of CB's involved in the process, compared to the previous QS-9000 certification scheme. To me, it shows that the Industry realized that some CB's could not add to the solution and had to be removed from the process.

AndyN said:

Also, since certification is no longer as significant a differentiator, surely the biggest benefit from using a CB must be internally to the registrant company?

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I don't subscribe to the idea that certification should be considered an attribute. Just like a college degree is not. Some make you earn it. Others are sold given to you, irrespective of you deserving it, or not. I wish the users of management system certificates would be more educated about the process, the players, the rules, etc. Only educated users of certificates will keep suppliers accountable to their choice of CB's and the impact to them, the customers. It seems that a lot of "educating" is necessary out there. The IAF, for example, had held, 3 Industry Days, so far. To me, these events are a clear attempt to educate users of certificates on issues that they need to be knowledgeable about.

I hear you Sidney. My beliefs are a little different on a couple of points you make. Many registrants are getting a certificate to satisfy customers' (some times very bizarre) demands. I believe that parlays into the kicking and screaming about days - simply because it equates to cost and hence often the cheaper CB's are chosen - and only for that reason. Management often don't see the need for anything like a well structured QMS to help them run their businesses. Certification is just another cost they must bear, when "they were doing fine, thank you"!

The other point you made regarding the number of CBs who have been excluded from the sector schemes also, IMHO, has a lot to do with their costs of maintaining auditor qualifications, complying with scheme requirements etc. compared to the amount of revenue generated from clients in those schemes.

A recent look into the newly revised IATF requirements, for example, will show that to be a 'competent auditor' you pretty much have to come from the industry and be some kind of guru in all the tools/techniques. That alone is going to limit the number of CBs who can attract auditors, because there's only so many days in a year a competent auditor can work!

I'm not saying a tightening up of auditor quals/performance etc. isn't necessary, however.

Sidney Vianna said:

While CB's most definitely need to be concerned with customer satisfaction and deliver their part of the contractual arrangement, the relationship between the CB and their customers is somewhat different because a CB must maintain the integrity of the process, EVEN when that means dissatisfying a customer. In extreme cases, a CB must de-certify a customer when the situation requires and justifies it.

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How often does this happen?

Al Rosen said:

How often does this happen?

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If you are asking how often do CB's revoke a certification, I am not aware of any public reliable database one could access such information. For the CB I work for, I can tell you that, between 3 to 5% (in average) of our client list is affected from suspensions and withdrawals, annually.

Sidney Vianna said:

If you are asking how often do CB's revoke a certification, I am not aware of any public reliable database one could access such information.

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The Inquirer, maybe?:mg:

Hi,

I'm new to this forum. I have a small contract manufacturing company (3 employees) that is reviewing Orion and Perry Johnson as potential Registrars. We are located in Oregon. I would appreciate any feedback on either of these or a strong recommendation for another Registrar that would be good for a small manufacturer. Some of this may have already been addressed in the previous 4,000 postings - which I apologize for not reading all of them.

Thanks,
Robin