Can You Reject an Auditor?

Started reading through this Thread again after reviewing posts over the last few months and I've developed a hypothesis .... A good number of auditors today seem have "S**T for brains.

Randy said:

Why? One can only venture guesses and one guess I have is that Lead Auditor Course tutors/instructors may themselves lack competence in the field.

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I often wonder what people whom I may think have so called "lack of brains" think of me/'us'.

Particularly when only one side of a story is told. Remember, "ignorance is an opinion lacking information".

Be well.

Randy said:

Why? One can only venture guesses and one guess I have is that Lead Auditor Course tutors/instructors may themselves lack competence in the field.

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Blaming the training as a root cause? Surely Deming would object. But then some CB auditors are also trainers. Can they really be competent at both? Should they be allowed to do both?

Quality-Nation said:

Surely Deming would object.

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He's dead as is Darwin

Quality-Nation said:

But then some CB auditors are also trainers.

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Really? News to me after delivering in excess of 200 accredited LA courses myself in a whole bunch of stuff (mainly 9-14-18/45...You?) and having survived RAB/QSA, Exemplar & IRCA witness audits.

Quality-Nation said:

Can they really be competent at both?

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Some can, some can't. I used to do qualifying reviews for new trainers & auditors as well. Some just can't cut the mustard in a training/instructional environment that were very fine auditors.

Quality-Nation said:

Should they be allowed to do both?

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When someone's paying upwards of $2000-$4,000 for training (the course, travel, hotel and everything else) I think they'd like someone who can share real-world experience as opposed to some Jack-Leg who might have watched a video and read "Teaching ISO Stuff for Dummies".

Randy said:

He's dead as is Darwin


Really? News to me after delivering in excess of 200 accredited LA courses myself in a whole bunch of stuff (mainly 9-14-18/45...You?) and having survived RAB/QSA, Exemplar & IRCA witness audits.


Some can, some can't. I used to do qualifying reviews for new trainers & auditors as well. Some just can't cut the mustard in a training/instructional environment that were very fine auditors.


When someone's paying upwards of $2000-$4,000 for training (the course, travel, hotel and everything else) I think they'd like someone who can share real-world experience as opposed to some Jack-Leg who might have watched a video and read "Teaching ISO Stuff for Dummies".

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His philosophy lives on, however. Those who ignore it/dismiss it are doomed to failure.

I believe many of the top western Certification Bodies also offer Lead Auditor training. Who are the instructors? Auditors who train or trainers who audit. Same result?

Quality-Nation said:

I believe many of the top western Certification Bodies also offer Lead Auditor training. Who are the instructors? Auditors who train or trainers who audit. Same result?

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Sometimes neither, some trainers don't audit (3rd party) and most auditors that I've known don't possess the "knack" or ability to teach (train).

Just going to echo what Randy said (Oct 2021)

'Answer is 100% YES at any time during the audit you can say "LEAVE"!!!! And then contact their customer service saying why. If the CB doesn't like your reasoning or decision tell them you want to transfer the certificate to another CB, they'll probably stop sucking eggs at that comment.'

The auditor works for YOU, not the other way around. I have dealt with good and bad auditors over the past 30 years, and (fortunately) the bad ones have been few and far between.

Ron Rompen said:

Just going to echo what Randy said (Oct 2021)

'Answer is 100% YES at any time during the audit you can say "LEAVE"!!!! And then contact their customer service saying why. If the CB doesn't like your reasoning or decision tell them you want to transfer the certificate to another CB, they'll probably stop sucking eggs at that comment.'

The auditor works for YOU, not the other way around. I have dealt with good and bad auditors over the past 30 years, and (fortunately) the bad ones have been few and far between.

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Ok. Sure you can ask them to leave — easy to say on the interweb. But what are the practical ramifications of bringing in a new auditor, usually with deadlines approaching. Bottom line IMO the CBs need to do a much better job of auditor oversight. In 20+ years I have never been asked to review how an auditor did. With all the QMS focus on customer satisfaction, go figure.

I agree with you Golfman - the CB's need to step up their game, provide a forum for feedback on the performance of their employees, and in general improve their performance.
Yes, it is easy to say it here on the 'net, and in reality it would take something pretty dramatic for me to kick an auditor out in the middle of an audit - but I still have the right to do so if necessary.
It is more likely that I would finish the audit, and then tell the CB that I do not want that auditor to return, and why. As I have said many times before, the CB and auditor works for ME, not the other way around. If I'm not getting what I'm paying for then I will find another supplier.

We had an auditor who found our QMS boring I suspect. We were a startup so our production records we low and had few targets for him to pull a thread on. He wrote us up on ESD control, despite the fact that our device was fully sealed and ESD was demonstrated not to have an impact. He also demanded that RMA product be sent out for EO sterilization before we could troubleshoot. despite the device not being used on mucosa or wounds and we would investigate after holding the product for 2 weeks and using PPE gear. We jumped through hoops for this auditor.

Ron Rompen said:

As I have said many times before, the CB and auditor works for ME, not the other way around. If I'm not getting what I'm paying for then I will find another supplier.

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And, as I have said, also many times, that’s the wrong perspective. There is a reason for the process to be called third party. The CB is contracted by you, but should not “work for you”. Especially because the vast, overwhelming majority of registrants want CB auditors that are very understanding and inept so real issues are not uncovered. This preponderant percentage of registrants want the easiest, fastest and cheapest certificate possible. Exactly because of that, system certification became a commodity and no system is left behind. Collectively, the registrants used the invisible hand of the capitalist market to devalue audits and certificates. So, morons became the norm. Not only in the customer-facing role of auditors but also in the back end of the operation.

Accreditation, what was supposed to prevent this downward spiral of competence and credibility failed. Failed badly. Failed miserably. And, even worse, from what I see, they don’t even realized they failed, as most stakeholders carry on like everything is fine and the ISO 9001 Brand Integrity group with its utter ineptitude and incompetence is the cherry on this disaster cake.