Can You Reject an Auditor?

Ron Rompen said:

The auditor works for YOU, not the other way around.

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Yeah, but I don't. To work FOR YOU would place in a position that eliminates OBJECTIVITY and IMPARTIALITY, and that's a dog that won't hunt. As an auditor I'm ethically bound to look after your interests by being as truthful and honest as possible and I'm ethically bound to the CB I represent to provide OBJECTIVE, IMPARTIALITY service while being as truthful and honest as possible representing them as best I can. Me? I don't enter into that equation.

If the CB doesn't manage their auditors, I'll do it for them and tell them not to come back. I am not opposed to competent, fair auditors and only wanting patsies who will turn a blind eye to real problems. I've warmly invited back auditors who have issued my company majors.

Sidney Vianna said:

And, as I have said, also many times, that’s the wrong perspective. There is a reason for the process to be called third party. The CB is contracted by you, but should not “work for you”. Especially because the vast, overwhelming majority of registrants want CB auditors that are very understanding and inept so real issues are not uncovered. This preponderant percentage of registrants want the easiest, fastest and cheapest certificate possible. Exactly because of that, system certification became a commodity and no system is left behind. Collectively, the registrants used the invisible hand of the capitalist market to devalue audits and certificates. So, morons became the norm. Not only in the customer-facing role of auditors but also in the back end of the operation.

Accreditation, what was supposed to prevent this downward spiral of competence and credibility failed. Failed badly. Failed miserably. And, even worse, from what I see, they don’t even realized they failed, as most stakeholders carry on like everything is fine and the ISO 9001 Brand Integrity group with its utter ineptitude and incompetence is the cherry on this disaster cake.

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The reality is that capitalism drives quality, regardless of any standard. Your quality sucks, your going out of business. The 3rd party auditor only adds a layer of cost and frustration to the process because most have little clue of what your doing and how your doing it. They tend to "find" things, taken totally out of context, and then act like the world is ending with all the root cause/corrective action stuff. Yet customers are happy and keep buying. Why would that be?

If I pay for it, and I can tell you to leave, then you work for me. Period. You may have ethical obligations to my customer base, but you work for me. Which means don't be an idiot and focus on what matters. As others have said, we have no problem with competent, even tough, but fair auditors. What we don't like are the time wasters and BSers. I have a system that is 20+ years old. Have good quality ratings with all my customers. Yet some yo yo comes in and doesn't like my "org chart" (which has been reviewed by dozens of other auditors with no issues) or thinks I need a written work instruction for taking a pee and I'm stuck dealing with useless, non value added crap to "keep" my cert. Then going up the chain of the CB is met with zero response, something is gravely wrong. Bottom line, the ISO cert adds zero actual value these days.

I have a tempestuous relationship with auditors and NB/CB. Yes, they are a BUSINESS that provides a service that is important. On the other hand, they are also a BUSINESS that provides revenue for stakeholders. It's a good objective but in practice, it is wanting. Introducing a risk based approach was a good step though. I hope it continues to drive value added changes.

Golfman25 said:

I have a system that is 20+ years old.

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Yep, been there and sampled something in a procedure during my 1st trip that had not been done internally or by others before me and ended up with a Major (I heard a "gasp & oh *hit" when I found it), potentially effecting product across the globe and untold numbers of customers, regulatory agencies, your drinking water & mine, nearly giving the location Quality Manager and their corporate Quality "Guru's" multiple strokes and heart attacks. (Be careful, or you might be laying a booby trap you'll trip)

Golfman25 said:

I need a written work instruction for taking a pee

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I've actually seen some of those, they exist. They exist for #2 as well.

Golfman25 said:

Then going up the chain of the CB is met with zero response

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One of my best sources of income, transferring certificates.

I have rejected two auditors in the past. Fortunately, this was a rare occurrence. The first auditor was so aggressive and grilled the operators unmercifully until some broke down and cried. Gone! The second auditor1 made up requirements on the fly and got mad when I challenged him. I was the quality director and had already heard some things about him from my quality manager. That plant was constantly adding non-value add things not required by the standard to the QMS to satisfy him. When he made arrangements to schedule his next audit and told my quality manager that I was forbidden to attend, I contacted the CB and told them to send someone else. At my current company we did ask for a new auditor because the previous auditor had been with us for too long and had gotten somewhat complacent, so we wanted a fresh set of eyes.

Added: 1 I later heard that this auditor failed his TS16949 exam and could no longer perform those audits.

As we have said many times here: If you roll over and accept whatever abuse or made up requirements from an auditor you are going to suffer. If enough people do that incompetent auditors will flourish adn we only have ourselves to blame. YES the CBS should clean up their own mess, but why should they if no one complains. There are no super heroes to save the day - we must do it ourselves.

“He who pays the piper…”