In ISO 9001:2008 - Can we show an Internal Department as our Client/Customer

armani said:

I agree with @Peter Fraser .... a customer (in ISO 9001:2015 acception) is an external customer.

Otherwise, org will be confronted with some challenges:
ex.1: if HR Dept is a customer, it cannot be included in an internal audit plan (it means organization is auditing a client - furthermore, it is an internal audit performed on a client...contradiction) ;
ex. 2: 8.2.1 + 8.5.3 - "property belonging to customers" is non-existent, because all the property belonging to an internal customer (e.g. HR Dept) is actually not belonging to this customer, but to organization;
ex. 3: how can an org apply cap. 8.6 (e.g. release of a product to the customer (.....) approved by customer)?;
ex. 4: post delivery-activities in case of an internal customer? + see NOTE from 8.5.5.....not very applicable;
ex. 5: 9.1.2 - monitoring (internal) customer satisfaction??....who does it?....I doubt it;
ex. 6: Figure 2 (ISO 9001:2015) shows clearly that products / services are delivered outside organization - and from outside comes customer requirements and customer satisfaction.
and so on....and so on ... for every clause

Do not mistake outputs for products / services - this distinction is made clear in ISO 9001:2015 (e.g. in 8.5.4 vs. 8.6).
Outputs can be from and to an internal process, products / services are only to the (external) customer.....read carefully ISO 9001:2015.

Plus, if the customer is an internal dept. (e.g. HR Dept), it means Certification Body is auditing the customer (when re/certification is needed)??
And can OC identify a non-conformity from a customer?...
Because CB must include HR Dept. in the recertification audit plan, being a process contributing to ....

Regarding ISO 9000 (and reference to "internal client"), it could be applicable for another dept. / process (not included in QMS scope - Finance etc.) or another dept. / organization (from the same holding etc. organization is part of).

Please excuse my possible mistakes, I am not a native English speaker...

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Peter Fraser said:

Oh, if only it were that easy to interpret 9000 and 9001! There is often a gap between what folk think of as their organisation's "customers" and "products" and what the definitions in the standards seem to say. ISO9000 says that: "a customer is an organization or person that receives a product (ie the result of a process)", but a note in ISO9000:2000 states that the term “product” applies “only to the product intended for, or required by, a customer”. [Of course it is - it is part of a circular definition!]

Although the concept of “internal” as well as external customers does give a useful reminder that individuals within the organisation rely on others’ performances, I believe that the way most people think of the term “product” is still largely used in relation to the “deliverable” supplied by the organisation to an outside party (an external customer).

If customers can be internal, the term "customer-related processes" is a tautology - by definition, every process must be "customer-related". Confusing?

It gets worse: 3.5.2.3 defines a "service" as "intangible product that is the result of interaction between customer and supplier", and NOTE 2 then totally confuses me by talking about "the product of a service..." (ie not of a process)... And the fact that "product" is defined as "the result of a process" is then compromised by the term "product realization processes" which implies that other processes don't "realise" (ie create) products.

3.10.1 NOTE 2 says that "External audits include those generally termed second- and third-party audits. Second-party audits are conducted by parties having an interest in the organization, such as customers..." which sounds very much to me as though they are external to the organisation.

And ISO9001:2008 has complicated it further by saying that "In this International Standard, the term “product” applies to the product intended for, or required by, a customer or the product realization processes. This applies to any intended output resulting from product realization processes, including purchasing". Surely there must be a simpler way to define and explain the basic terms that everyone uses?

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3.2.4
customer
person or organization (3.2.1) that could or does receive a product (3.7.6) or a service (3.7.7) that is intended for or required by this person or organization
EXAMPLE Consumer, client, end-user, retailer, receiver of product or service from an internal process (3.4.1), beneficiary and purchaser.
Note 1 to entry: A customer can be internal or external to the organization.

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