ISO/TS16949 (to become IATF 16949:2016) alignment to ISO 9001:2015

Re: Will ISO/TS16949 be aligned to ISO9001:2015 in the future?

When I was younger, I used to think that banner on the front of QS-9000 "One World, One Quality System" was actually a good idea ........... shame the auto industry doesn't think so. To within a very narrow set of parameters, every single OEM requires exactly the same from every supplier (quality, cost, delivery) and there are already strctures in place for APQP, PPAP, SPC, MSA etc. so why can't they all use that one system?

I'll get my coat ..........................

Re: What is the status of the next version of ISO 14001?

Well Brian,

Not everyone shares your enthusiasm for the HLS (high level structure). In fact over 14 multi-nationals in the automotive industry share an entirely different view. There are others who view the HLS as undermining a systems concept. Some even have gone so far as to believe that this will devolve ISO MSS.

However, I am always interested in learning from differing positions. Can you show me how the HLS (high level structure) "will further support the PDCA methodology"? A diagram? An explanation?
Thanks

Re: What is the status of the next version of ISO 14001?

LEJoh said:

In fact over 14 multi-nationals in the automotive industry share an entirely different view. There are others who view the HLS as undermining a systems concept. Some even have gone so far as to believe that this will devolve ISO MSS.

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Would it be possible for you to expand on the automotive OEM's not supporting the ISO HLS? These people obviously have representation at the ISO TC's 176 and 207, responsible, respectively for the ISO 9001, TS 16949 and 14001 standards.

We have yet to hear anything official about the future version of TS 16949, i.e., will it follow the 9001 and HLS lead, or not.

The fact that the ISO TMB allowed the TC 210 to move forward with a (much delayed) ISO 13485 revision NOT FOLLOWING the HLS is worrisome, in my opinion because it shows cracks in the ISO hierarchy and chain of command.

Re: What is the status of the next version of ISO 14001?

TS 16949 will NOT FOLLOW the HLS (high level structure).

My understanding is that the industry has chosen not to comment as an industry on 9001 or 14001, that is for the individual company to decide. Also, it is important to remember that ISO MSS are voluntary standards, an organization may choose to stay with 14001:2004 if it decides this is in its best interest.

I am providing here my own explanation of the message I have seen from the TMB. Annex SL is a "should-all', TMB would like all MSS to follow it, but understands the need for exceptions. Any deviation must include a rationale. It is not clear at the end of the day what TMB will do with these deviations. And, with your data on 13485, that makes TWO standards that will not follow the HLS. I expect there will be more.

In addition, there is some flexibility in how the HLS is applied - some versions I have seen will not make them user friendly documents, another ding in ISO's market. As it stands ISO has less than a 1% adoption globally against the stats for any MSS adoption when compared to the number of legally constituted employer-based entities in the world.

I don't think anyone would argue the logic and potential savings of a 'plug and play' approach where it enabled users of multiple standards, a simple framework on which to build an integrated system, whether it was for EMS, QMS, ENMS, or whatever. However, the extent to which those involved with drafting the HLS, in my personal view, went too far. In the 20 years of my involvement in writing and negotiating MS standards, and helping write guides for users and helping the development of EMS in entities, I have yet to have someone state that they could not integrate other ISO MS standards.

I had not heard about 13485, thanks for that data. Will investigate.

Re: What is the status of the next version of ISO 14001?

LEJoh said:

TS 16949 will NOT FOLLOW the HLS (high level structure).

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Wow. That is a big blow to ISO. Bigger than the API decision not to use ISO 9001 as the baseline version of the revision to the API Q1 (used to be the same as the ISO TS 29001 {petroleum petrochemical natural gas}) and the new API Q2.

Not all is well on the ISO front.....:mg:

Re: What is the status of the next version of ISO 14001?

The tragic and unnecessary expansion of standards, formats, structures, and standards writing bodies will ultimately lead to the demise of industry acceptance of standards in general.

Re: Will ISO/TS16949 be aligned to ISO9001:2015 in the future?

I think that TS16949 is obsolete anyway. With the Ford Q1 requirements, GM QSB as examples the purpose of QS9000 and then TS16949 to be one standard is gone.

Now in order to be a supplier I must be TS certified and then become either Q1 approved or QSB passed. It is crazy! Kill TS16949 and the auto requirement and just go back to each company has their own standard because currently each company has their own standard which we must meet and then we get to have TS16949 audit on top of that.

So don't align it...kill it.

Re: Will ISO/TS16949 be aligned to ISO9001:2015 in the future?

The initial intent of QS-9000 and later ISO/TS 16949 was to prevent the development of all kind of different quality management systems for different OEMs. But with all the wildly varying Customer Specific Requirements, AIAG manuals, and additional OEM certification requirements, it now has completely lost its meaning and usefulness. My job as consultant/trainer is to help my automotive Clients wade through this requirements morass, to help them survive; consolidate, harmonize, align, and integrate all the OEM's and first tiers' wishes, requirements, and expectations. I enjoy the challenge, but I do feel for my Clients.

Re: What is the status of the next version of ISO 14001?

LEJoh said:

TS 16949 will NOT FOLLOW the HLS (high level structure).<snip>

Click to expand...

What's the source of this information?

Re: What is the status of the next version of ISO 14001?

I was recently told by a member of the SMMT that there is considerable feeling that IATF will walk away from 9001:2015 and, potentially, set TS16949 up as a separate/non-aligned standard.
Sadly, I agree with the comment earlier about "one world, one quality system" - oddly, Ford are the people who really started the avalanche of CSR's that cut right across the whole ethos ................. I'm obviously na?ve!