Trusting ISO 13485 Certification of a Supplier... A Sad Story

Mark Meer

Trusted Information Resource
Good discussion...

On the other extreme, if an auditor is enforcing something that is not required, they are taking another risk, of losing a client. We are looking to create equilibrium, not extremes.

I think we can agree that within the "equilibrium" that conforms to IAF, there is still a fair amount of discretion granted to auditors. In otherwords you can still have a "light audit" versus a "hard audit".

Although I don't have ideas for a better system (I am certainly not advocating "tear[ing] down out the entire roadway to international trade and healthcare protection"), I do think there is an inescapable business interest for CBs to lean towards the "light audits" within the "equilibrium".

I don't know what others' experiences are, but in mine, the difference between an ISO inspection (business interest for "light" audit), and an FDA inspection (no conflict of interest) is like night and day.

Granted, until we have some kind of global governing body that can eliminate the conflict of interest inherent in privatized certification, I can't see a better system at the moment...
 
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gramaley

The difference with FDA inspections and ISO 13485 audits is certainly night and day. That is, FDA doesn't do the inspections at all, in most cases, and ISO 13485 audits are performed annually. (night/day)

At a peak of inspections (yr 2012), only 5% of foreign manufacturers were inspected by FDA. In Korea, only 1%!

I know there are companies with 90,000 employees that get inspected constantly by the US FDA, and would do anything to get out of those "hard" inspections, and they are running to MDSAP, like the other previous failed programs, for the same reasons, but the majority of medical device manufacturers rarely see and FDA inspector if they are making lower risk devices, or if they are smaller. According to newer statistics published in Canada, 90% of industry is small. FDA has 32,000 registered firms, that is a lot of inspections among the more than 200 countries they have identified as potential sources for inspection, but what about their resources?

Black? White? A light inspection is better than no inspection, but there is nothing "light" about an ISO 13485 audit, even when it is "light".
 
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MIREGMGR

they are running to MDSAP, like the other previous failed programs

You're arguing that FDA should inspect more often, and that ISO 13485 audits are effective, but that VARSP (which has substituted the participant's annual ISO 13485 audit for their nominal FDA inspection exposure) has been a "failed program" and MDSAP which will beef up the required ISO 13485 audit is "like the other previous failed programs"...?

I don't grasp your logic.
 
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gramaley

PMAP, VAP, MDSAP were all voluntary programs based on the same model that a single audit would encompass multiple regions, but this is very misleading.

MDSAP, like the other programs is not an ISO 13485 audit. It is combined "audit" of CMDR + CMDCAS, FDA QSR, BGMP, etc. It doesn't include CE. It is longer, more expensive, exposes the audit report to all IMDRF members, even those that are mere observers.

When you take something and make it more expensive, and more complicated, and then make it voluntary, why would anyone sign up for it? That is my logic.

I can get everywhere with my CE, except Canada, so I add CMDCAS. CMDCAS uses the IAF member SCC, which enforces IAF MD9, so eventually, if SCC ever gets around to signing the MLA for ISO 13485, their credibility will be equivalent to the Accreditation Bodies in Europe that signed the IAF MLA for ISO 13485 in 2014.

ISO 13485, by the European Regulation on Accreditation, can only be issued by an Accreditation Body No 765/2008. So MDSAP will be illegal in Europe, for ISO 13485, unless it operates under this regulation and an EA member recognition arrangement. As EA recognizes the IAF program and holds hand with the European Regulation on Accreditation, this is preventing MDSAP from being acceptable in Europe, for ISO 13485.
 
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MIREGMGR

When you take something and make it more expensive, and more complicated, and then make it voluntary, why would anyone sign up for it?

Ummm...because the harmonization element within FDA wants it to be the pilot for the future of FDA inspections, and:

1. Early participation allows the potential to influence the program and make it work better.
2. It's good citizenship to be part of the solution.
3. We get the very real benefits of (a) being inspected/audited on a scheduled basis, and (b) having only an enhanced ISO 13485 audit instead of an ISO 13485 audit and maybe an FDA inspection.

On that latter point, business risk management is part of my portfolio. We understand ISO 13485 compliance pretty well, and we're good at those audits, i.e. low risk. FDA inspections are unknown quantities, i.e. high risk.

In the past three years, I've avoided two FDA QSIT1 inspections by providing my VARSP participant number. We were notified of one such scheduled inspection during a recent Board of Directors meeting here in our plant, on a day that I had off. The Board didn't previously know of our VARSP participation, and were dismayed when they were informed of the phone call from FDA. Next day I called the inspector with the VARSP number, she checked with Maryland, and I got to tell the Board that FDA had cancelled the inspection. The Board was quite happy.
 
M

MIREGMGR

ISO 13485, by the European Regulation on Accreditation, can only be issued by an Accreditation Body No 765/2008. So MDSAP will be illegal in Europe, for ISO 13485, unless it operates under this regulation and an EA member recognition arrangement. As EA recognizes the IAF program and holds hand with the European Regulation on Accreditation, this is preventing MDSAP from being acceptable in Europe, for ISO 13485.

Our understanding from our CB, a key EU NB, is that our ISO 13485 certificate will continue under MDSAP.
 
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gramaley

Let’s be very clear, when talking about MDSAP, we are talking about a very small number of CABs, who are both operating as European Notified Bodies, and CMDCAS registrars.

However, that doesn’t qualify them to issue ISO 13485 certificates that comply with the European Law on Accreditation. MDSAP does not cover CE marking, but you can get all these things combined CE +MDSAP because these are super-CABs doing super-scoped audits. But still the ISO 13485 cert won’t be recognized in Europe, MDSAP violates the European Regulation on Accreditation, and CE marking itself, doesn’t follow international norms for accreditation either.

CE certification is actually a product certification that relies on a Notifying Authority (a regulatory authority designated by the European Commission). No Regulatory Authority can provide accreditation. With the exception of SWEDAC in Sweden, which is both an Accreditation Body and also the Notifying Authority for all three European Medical Device Directives?

International Accreditation requires full use of the ISO 17011 by Accreditation Bodies that apply the IAF Mandatory Documents for operating Accreditation activities (accrediting testing labs to ISO 17025, accrediting CABs to ISO 17021 and accrediting organizations that certify personnel ISO 17024). Now that the IAF is adding special “subscopes” for Medical Device QMS ISO 13485, Food Safety QMS ISO 22000 and Information Security ISO 27001, IAF has added special IAF Mandatory Documents (e.g. IAF MD8, MD9) etc to detail the additional requirements for ABs and CABs to support these certifications.

I think it’s important to state that Protection of the Public, whether from medical devices, unsafe food, or patient information (information security) the IAF is the only organization with the capacity to manage accredited certificates to the full extent we need them. They manage more than 1.6 million accredited certificates worldwide. In fact, whether or not MDSAP ever becomes a legal requirement somewhere, ISO 13485 and ISO 9001 underpin everyone’s certs.

Benefits of MDSAP
The manufacturers that would truly benefit from MDSAP, will be those trying to avoid the frequent visits by the FDA (which are typically multinational) and/or those that are making Brazilian Risk Class 3 medical devices, who are hampered by BGMP inspections that are so backlogged, it is causing millions in lost sales (again, something I hear from multinationals that want MDSAP). Even those people however, are uncomfortable with the sharing of their audit information with the IMDRF members and other regulators. So if you gain Brazil, but fail the FDA QSR significantly, well… you get the idea. There are some very strong supporters from industry for MDSAP, but I have never seen one from a small or medium size company.

I already explained why my own logic questions why smaller companies would sign up, since its voluntary. I learned of a US Company that just dumped Canada. Yes, they were small, likely never see FDA inspectors, but also likely sell relatively low risk devices. Small companies are fickle, but they make up the majority, everywhere, except at the discussion tables (can’t afford the plane ticket, and they don’t react to anything that doesn’t hit them first). This is the reality that we have to contend with.

And just to let you know, those small manufacturers overseas, they don't want any third party program, at all. They operate a lot more loosely, under local regulators that react to problems, and have few resources to keep up with GMP inspections. So the regulators all want help, but they all need to make sure that devices are available to support the healthcare system. Many have IAF member accreditation bodies, and wouldn't know how, or have any experience accrediting a CABs to do ISO 13485 audits. This was found to be a very big problem in Europe. Regulators are generally not very good as accreditation assessors and they are inconsistent since the regulators are not governed by anything like an ISO 17011 standard, which would help, if they had the resources to implement that kind of structure.
 
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gramaley

I can sell into the US without the CE mark or anything else. Once a company is registered (completes an online form with FDA), they can sell immediately. The 510(k) issue may/may not apply, but that is a separate issue for a couple reasons.

So whether I have a CE or not makes no difference. The US is by far, the easiest big market to sell into. FDA inspections are free, if they occur at all. If one happens abroad (one of those 5% occurrences), its free.
 

Mark Meer

Trusted Information Resource
The US is by far, the easiest big market to sell into.

This is not my experience, but then again I can only speak for myself. I see you are from the US. Perhaps the opinion is due to a local vs. foreign perspective?

If one happens abroad (one of those 5% occurrences), its free.

Precisely: it's free. ...meaning there is no conflict of interest, and you can be certain your system will be scrutinized under a microscope before applying the fine-toothed comb. ...unlike ISO inspections where the looming threat of taking your business elsewhere is enough to ensure inspections are kept reasonably "light".
 
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