Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?
I guess it depends what is involved. If it is just a compilations of documents already in existence, then $0. But if you need to run a special run and create all new documents, then a modest charge might be in order. I'll agree with Miner though. Very rarely do we charge separately for a PPAP. On existing projects, it is just a compilation of documents to make it "official. On new projects, it is built into the price. Good luck.
I guess it depends what is involved. If it is just a compilations of documents already in existence, then $0. But if you need to run a special run and create all new documents, then a modest charge might be in order. I'll agree with Miner though. Very rarely do we charge separately for a PPAP. On existing projects, it is just a compilation of documents to make it "official. On new projects, it is built into the price. Good luck.
N
ncwalker
Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?
As a Tier 1 to automotive who helps produce our PPAPs and who also receives PPAPs from our suppliers, I will echo Miner's thought.
If you come to me as a supplier and "suggest" I pay you to do a PPAP because it is "special," I am going to bust your butt and call out every little thing wrong and make it as painful on you as possible. It's just bad form to do it.
There IS a cost, however, associated with it. And that's the cost of compiling all the documentation - making it pretty. And you should be accounting for this in your quote in your "development costs." But if you are considering the WORK behind it a cost, and I mean the metrology lab time to do the capability studies, the time to do the Gage R&Rs, etc. That should NOT be an additional cost. You should be doing that kind of work regardless of customer requirements.
Why? It protects YOU as the supplier, and ensures you are making what you think you are making. That's just being careful with your product. You think a PPAP is costly? Try a sort where you don't have good containment because you didn't check your work.
I don't mean to sound harsh to you personally, but I DO want to sound harsh before you go and think you should tell your customer they should pay for your PPAP. You can do whatever you wish, it's your business. And you may get lucky. Wouldn't bet on it ....
As a Tier 1 to automotive who helps produce our PPAPs and who also receives PPAPs from our suppliers, I will echo Miner's thought.
If you come to me as a supplier and "suggest" I pay you to do a PPAP because it is "special," I am going to bust your butt and call out every little thing wrong and make it as painful on you as possible. It's just bad form to do it.
There IS a cost, however, associated with it. And that's the cost of compiling all the documentation - making it pretty. And you should be accounting for this in your quote in your "development costs." But if you are considering the WORK behind it a cost, and I mean the metrology lab time to do the capability studies, the time to do the Gage R&Rs, etc. That should NOT be an additional cost. You should be doing that kind of work regardless of customer requirements.
Why? It protects YOU as the supplier, and ensures you are making what you think you are making. That's just being careful with your product. You think a PPAP is costly? Try a sort where you don't have good containment because you didn't check your work.
I don't mean to sound harsh to you personally, but I DO want to sound harsh before you go and think you should tell your customer they should pay for your PPAP. You can do whatever you wish, it's your business. And you may get lucky. Wouldn't bet on it ....
N
ncwalker
Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?
I am also going to add this, because it sounds like you MAY be a little stuck and these PPAP requests are coming after the fact. I'm not sure what you position is in your company relative to quotes and charges, and more importantly, I don't know the relationship you have with your customers buyer and their supplier quality engineer. That said, you should evaluate the following advice ...
NORMALLY the "relationship" you have with your customer is with the faces of their company that interact with you - the supplier quality engineer, the scheduler (who is not often involved in approvals of exchanges of money outside of regular production) and the buyer. To EVERYONE else, you are just another "faceless supplier" in that organization.
The whole "I'm going to bill them for the PPAP" will get "out" in your customers company. Because the finance guys (who aren't used to seeing this) will say "What the hell is THIS???" And it will be discussed in their meetings, etc. And suddenly you will not be the "faceless" supplier. You will have a face - of a greedy bastard trying to nickel/dime them. You DON'T want that.
So how do you get paid IF this is a surprise? IF you have been a good supplier willing to work with your SQ and buyer, odds are they will appreciate the relationship and WORK with you. Again, I don't know you or them, but .... What you do is go to them for help, tell them you did not expect this new requirement and it is going to hurt you. And suggest that they could make up some of the cost on engineering changes or replacement tooling. IF what you are saying is true and this IS a new change or new requirement that they are forcing on you and your buyer/or SQ isn't a total "by the book" schmuck, they'll help you out.
But ... if you are just whining about it and this is NOT a surprise or a new request, AND you aren't the "good supplier" you think you are, then this could get tricky real fast.
Most people who sit on the boundary of customer/supplier - the SQs, the buyers, etc WANT to foster a good working relationship. Everyone needs "favors" every now and then. But the people within the customer organization? Not so much. You're just another name/number report. They think there's a million suppliers out there just like you.
The "asking the customer to pay for PPAP" puts the people you WANT on your side - the SQ and the buyer - at odds with you. You do NOT want that, because those are the folks that will help you navigate "their" system when it hits the fan.
Hopefully that's more helpful.
I am also going to add this, because it sounds like you MAY be a little stuck and these PPAP requests are coming after the fact. I'm not sure what you position is in your company relative to quotes and charges, and more importantly, I don't know the relationship you have with your customers buyer and their supplier quality engineer. That said, you should evaluate the following advice ...
NORMALLY the "relationship" you have with your customer is with the faces of their company that interact with you - the supplier quality engineer, the scheduler (who is not often involved in approvals of exchanges of money outside of regular production) and the buyer. To EVERYONE else, you are just another "faceless supplier" in that organization.
The whole "I'm going to bill them for the PPAP" will get "out" in your customers company. Because the finance guys (who aren't used to seeing this) will say "What the hell is THIS???" And it will be discussed in their meetings, etc. And suddenly you will not be the "faceless" supplier. You will have a face - of a greedy bastard trying to nickel/dime them. You DON'T want that.
So how do you get paid IF this is a surprise? IF you have been a good supplier willing to work with your SQ and buyer, odds are they will appreciate the relationship and WORK with you. Again, I don't know you or them, but .... What you do is go to them for help, tell them you did not expect this new requirement and it is going to hurt you. And suggest that they could make up some of the cost on engineering changes or replacement tooling. IF what you are saying is true and this IS a new change or new requirement that they are forcing on you and your buyer/or SQ isn't a total "by the book" schmuck, they'll help you out.
But ... if you are just whining about it and this is NOT a surprise or a new request, AND you aren't the "good supplier" you think you are, then this could get tricky real fast.
Most people who sit on the boundary of customer/supplier - the SQs, the buyers, etc WANT to foster a good working relationship. Everyone needs "favors" every now and then. But the people within the customer organization? Not so much. You're just another name/number report. They think there's a million suppliers out there just like you.
The "asking the customer to pay for PPAP" puts the people you WANT on your side - the SQ and the buyer - at odds with you. You do NOT want that, because those are the folks that will help you navigate "their" system when it hits the fan.
Hopefully that's more helpful.
Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?
I am also new to PPAP and my Company has put in place PPAP for our manufacturing suppliers who are ISO 9001 approved.
Being a medical device company in the process of gaining a certificate for ISO 13485 are we still required to complete supplier audits as well as PPAP?
I am also new to PPAP and my Company has put in place PPAP for our manufacturing suppliers who are ISO 9001 approved.
Being a medical device company in the process of gaining a certificate for ISO 13485 are we still required to complete supplier audits as well as PPAP?
Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?
This is a good example of how "PPAP" has been commandeered by other industries. While everyone has some type of product approval requirements, the automotive industry came up with an entire book of specifications required for a "PPAP." It is thus important to distinguish whether you need an automotive PPAP or something else.
This is a good example of how "PPAP" has been commandeered by other industries. While everyone has some type of product approval requirements, the automotive industry came up with an entire book of specifications required for a "PPAP." It is thus important to distinguish whether you need an automotive PPAP or something else.
S
Sean Kelley
Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?
For starters you really need to know what they customer wants. Sometimes all they really want is a Level 1 PPAP that is basically signed PSW that really is a statement that you won't make any changes to your process without their prior approval. It does not mean you should not have all of the supporting documentation but if you are not required to be TS certified then you may not have control plans/ FMEAs, gage R&R, etc. Best to find out what they really want. Being TS certified we are required to have PPAPs from our outprocessors which are supplying a manufacturing service. It is up to us to decide what we want from each of them and everyone is different. Some want it all. Personally I like capability studies. It tells me a lot about their process and whether or not nonconforming product is likely from their process.
For starters you really need to know what they customer wants. Sometimes all they really want is a Level 1 PPAP that is basically signed PSW that really is a statement that you won't make any changes to your process without their prior approval. It does not mean you should not have all of the supporting documentation but if you are not required to be TS certified then you may not have control plans/ FMEAs, gage R&R, etc. Best to find out what they really want. Being TS certified we are required to have PPAPs from our outprocessors which are supplying a manufacturing service. It is up to us to decide what we want from each of them and everyone is different. Some want it all. Personally I like capability studies. It tells me a lot about their process and whether or not nonconforming product is likely from their process.
R
rsd252
Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?
Hi, thank you for everyone's suggestions. I wasn't sure where to start because we aren't currently ISO certified and these requests are after we have provided to our customers for years. Our company has under 20 people total and I am sure the PPAP process will get easier after a couple of them are done. I have done research and plan on doing some training on them so I can get better acquainted with the whole process. When I received my initial request, as I said we are a very small company that provides custom proximity sensors and are lower volume, I didn't know where to start. The information here has been helpful, so thanks again!
Hi, thank you for everyone's suggestions. I wasn't sure where to start because we aren't currently ISO certified and these requests are after we have provided to our customers for years. Our company has under 20 people total and I am sure the PPAP process will get easier after a couple of them are done. I have done research and plan on doing some training on them so I can get better acquainted with the whole process. When I received my initial request, as I said we are a very small company that provides custom proximity sensors and are lower volume, I didn't know where to start. The information here has been helpful, so thanks again!
N
ncwalker
Re: PPAP for Beginners - Where do I start?
OK Beginners - Here's automotive PPAPs for Dummies. There are 18 Elements of a PPAP. It's a fancy way of saying "we want these 18 things ...." Drumroll .......
#1: Design Records - This is just the print or design. So there is a line in the sand saying what you built the process around, because customers LOVE to bump revisions while you are developing the process. What do you submit? The part print you did the process to. Handy tip: IF you have "bubbled" one, submit THAT so the SQE can easily evaluate the material further down.
#2: Engineering Changes - So IF they have changed the design in process and (very often) are way behind at giving you the updated print, you should be making a record of each and every change, probably in an excel document, that shows the changes from when you got your PO to when you got everything done - PPAP submission time. That's what goes in section 2.
#3: Engineering Approval - Usually THEY are involved in this more than you and will lord this over you to try and put off paying you your tooling money. When do you have to do something? When what you produce is testable as a stand alone component or sub assembly. Examples:
- a vibration isolation bushing - they are paying you to design a bushing that can go through X durometer cycles and you have to demonstrate your bushing CAN after so many cycles.
- a bearing - where they are specifying a bearing life under load, and not just straight dimensions
- a solenoid - where it has to cycle x many times loaded and x+ unloaded.
See where I am going? If your component can be functionally tested, you're going to have to submit the results of that in this section.
#4 Design Failure Mode and Effects Analysis (DFMEA): To put it glibly, this is a list where you and all your engineers sit around and say "what could go wrong with the DESIGN and what would happen if it did?" It's actually pretty formal and there's a whole AIAG manual devoted to this. But guess what? If you ARE NOT designing the part, you don't have to do this. What I mean is, if your customer has given you a print and said "Make me this exact thing" then THEY are design responsible. If they have given you specifications and it is up to you to fill in the "black box" with whatever to MEET those specifications - you are design responsible and you have to do this.
#5: Process Flow Diagram (PFD): This is basically a flow chart showing all the process steps. A very sore spot with me, the AIAG manual gives you an example and it is goofy and redundant and I really don't like it. AND it says "This is an example." To me, I'd rather see a plan view of your floor with arrows showing how the parts move. Even schematic in nature. You CAN do this. But sadly, many customer SQs want the goofy format because they think it is a requirement. What are your minefields here? You have to include EVERY step. Even movement. If you do process for a while, then send the part out to Bob's special whatever surface to have it painted/treated/plated/glued or otherwise some nasty process you don't want to do and then it comes back to you for finishing, you have annotate: pack it up for Bob's, move it to Bob's, Bob does his thing, Bob packs it back up, move back to me, etc. EVERY step. Including the inspection steps. Also, think ahead. Let's say you are going to get a whiz bang robot trimmer. But it's not going to come on line for months after start of production because it got ordered late and you are going to hand trim until then. If it doesn't affect form/fit/function, you CAN PPAP ALTERNATE PATHS. It does NOT say you can't. Path A is hand trimming, path B is fancy robot trimming. THEN you DO NOT have to resubmit PPAP again when the robot doohickey shows up later. OR if it breaks down 6 months in and you have to go back to hand trimming.
#6 Process Failure Mode and Effects Analysis (PFMEA): This is exactly like the DFMEA, but instead of asking where the PART might fail, it asks how the process that makes the part might make a bad one. Simple as that. Could it make a hole oversized? Could it not make the hole? And I am going to add in here - GET THE BOOK. There are rankings for this on Severity, Occurrence, and Detection that are ranked on a 1-10 scale. And the meanings of the rankings is pretty much set in stone. You come up in court or on some crazy warranty issue and you use your own scale that doesn't match with industry standard, well, you have been warned. Also - every step in the PFD must be in here too.
OK - That's one third of the way through .......
OK Beginners - Here's automotive PPAPs for Dummies. There are 18 Elements of a PPAP. It's a fancy way of saying "we want these 18 things ...." Drumroll .......
#1: Design Records - This is just the print or design. So there is a line in the sand saying what you built the process around, because customers LOVE to bump revisions while you are developing the process. What do you submit? The part print you did the process to. Handy tip: IF you have "bubbled" one, submit THAT so the SQE can easily evaluate the material further down.
#2: Engineering Changes - So IF they have changed the design in process and (very often) are way behind at giving you the updated print, you should be making a record of each and every change, probably in an excel document, that shows the changes from when you got your PO to when you got everything done - PPAP submission time. That's what goes in section 2.
#3: Engineering Approval - Usually THEY are involved in this more than you and will lord this over you to try and put off paying you your tooling money. When do you have to do something? When what you produce is testable as a stand alone component or sub assembly. Examples:
- a vibration isolation bushing - they are paying you to design a bushing that can go through X durometer cycles and you have to demonstrate your bushing CAN after so many cycles.
- a bearing - where they are specifying a bearing life under load, and not just straight dimensions
- a solenoid - where it has to cycle x many times loaded and x+ unloaded.
See where I am going? If your component can be functionally tested, you're going to have to submit the results of that in this section.
#4 Design Failure Mode and Effects Analysis (DFMEA): To put it glibly, this is a list where you and all your engineers sit around and say "what could go wrong with the DESIGN and what would happen if it did?" It's actually pretty formal and there's a whole AIAG manual devoted to this. But guess what? If you ARE NOT designing the part, you don't have to do this. What I mean is, if your customer has given you a print and said "Make me this exact thing" then THEY are design responsible. If they have given you specifications and it is up to you to fill in the "black box" with whatever to MEET those specifications - you are design responsible and you have to do this.
#5: Process Flow Diagram (PFD): This is basically a flow chart showing all the process steps. A very sore spot with me, the AIAG manual gives you an example and it is goofy and redundant and I really don't like it. AND it says "This is an example." To me, I'd rather see a plan view of your floor with arrows showing how the parts move. Even schematic in nature. You CAN do this. But sadly, many customer SQs want the goofy format because they think it is a requirement. What are your minefields here? You have to include EVERY step. Even movement. If you do process for a while, then send the part out to Bob's special whatever surface to have it painted/treated/plated/glued or otherwise some nasty process you don't want to do and then it comes back to you for finishing, you have annotate: pack it up for Bob's, move it to Bob's, Bob does his thing, Bob packs it back up, move back to me, etc. EVERY step. Including the inspection steps. Also, think ahead. Let's say you are going to get a whiz bang robot trimmer. But it's not going to come on line for months after start of production because it got ordered late and you are going to hand trim until then. If it doesn't affect form/fit/function, you CAN PPAP ALTERNATE PATHS. It does NOT say you can't. Path A is hand trimming, path B is fancy robot trimming. THEN you DO NOT have to resubmit PPAP again when the robot doohickey shows up later. OR if it breaks down 6 months in and you have to go back to hand trimming.
#6 Process Failure Mode and Effects Analysis (PFMEA): This is exactly like the DFMEA, but instead of asking where the PART might fail, it asks how the process that makes the part might make a bad one. Simple as that. Could it make a hole oversized? Could it not make the hole? And I am going to add in here - GET THE BOOK. There are rankings for this on Severity, Occurrence, and Detection that are ranked on a 1-10 scale. And the meanings of the rankings is pretty much set in stone. You come up in court or on some crazy warranty issue and you use your own scale that doesn't match with industry standard, well, you have been warned. Also - every step in the PFD must be in here too.
OK - That's one third of the way through .......
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