Defining Internal Audit Process Goals & Objectives

RCBeyette said:

To have a goal to reduce the number of external findings is not beneficial in my opinion.

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Why not? If you reduce the number of external findings, doesn't that show improvement?

kreco said:

We are under the impression that we must have established goals and objectives for every identified process? Am I mistaken? Auditor also wants to know how we measure the "effectiveness" of our audit system. Like I said above, our auditor's name is Satan!

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The standard does not really say how many you need. It appears to leave it up to you to decide which processes are worthy of establishing objectives and targets, with consideration to customer's needs.

kreco said:

Can anybody help me out in establishing goals & objectives for the internal audit process? So far my boss has; 1) maintain current standard certifications (ISO 9001:2000, AS 9100 & TS 16949), 2) Complete scheduled audits on time, 3) Complete external audit NCN's on time and 4) Complete Re-qualification testing on time (I oversee one tech responsible for requals). I just don't have a warm fuzzy feeling with these, but I just can't seem to identify some good measureable, attainable objectives. Any suggestions?

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IMO, the answer is found in cl 4.1.c. What is the purpose for internal audits? "To help us improve." How does it help you improve? "By finding things we can do better." So, the output of internal audits is "Findings that help us improve." If that is the case, then a goal of more findings, not less, would help you achieve your objective of "Findings that help us improve."

Gee, the process approach is a cool thing...when it is done right.

You know that I have a different view........

well IMHO internal audits have little or nothing to do with improvement, as currrently practiced Well, c'mon now, how many organization would have an internal audit program if 'ISO' didn't 'Sayso'??

So, here's my take on audits. They're to validate that the process was being followed, when the process performance results are reviewed by management, who can then decide what to improve and correct based on whether their people were following the process - after all, just getting good results isn't the whole story.

I have yet to see an organization where the internal audits are used by management to 'go after' improvements. Furthermore, what auditors have been equiped, like a 6 Sigma Green Belt, with the tools to identify/evaluate/measure/report improvement?

Seriously folks, who are we really kidding?

When we see an organization putting the same kinds of resources behind an internal audit as they put behind 6 Sigma, I'll believe it is about improvement, until then it's just a 'feel good' thing to discuss here

Andy

AndyN said:

well IMHO internal audits have little or nothing to do with improvement, as currrently practiced Well, c'mon now, how many organization would have an internal audit program if 'ISO' didn't 'Sayso'??

I have yet to see an organization where the internal audits are used by management to 'go after' improvements. Furthermore, what auditors have been equiped, like a 6 Sigma Green Belt, with the tools to identify/evaluate/measure/report improvement?

When we see an organization putting the same kinds of resources behind an internal audit as they put behind 6 Sigma, I'll believe it is about improvement, until then it's just a 'feel good' thing to discuss here.

Andy

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Andy, I apparently work with a different class of clients than what you worked with when you audited. There are MANY companies who do internal audits for all the right reasons. I wish I could let you accompany me on audits. Fully half of my (60+) clients do really good audits and consistently look for improvements with full support of top management.

But it didn't happen overnight, and many needed some "prodding" at first from external audits to get there (see there is a benefit from 3rd party audits).

Me too...........

and I'm not saying that no-one does, but after training thousands of auditors over a period of 13-15 years, they cannot describe their system of audits which involves management in anything approaching improvement. Yes, some audit findings have been improvements, no doubt. The vast majority, in my experience are 'copy cat' findings - similar in content to poor 3rd party findings. Rarely do they address management's interests, focusing on 'not following procedure' (only half the actual 'story') document control or something equally banal!

Sorry 'H' to be pesimistic

Andy

kreco said:

Can anybody help me out in establishing goals & objectives for the internal audit process?

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How about quantity of NC's that repeat themselves (from one audit to the next)? Also, each of our processes conduct a survey of their internal customer as one method of measuring satisfaction.

ctb

AndyN said:

and I'm not saying that no-one does, but after training thousands of auditors over a period of 13-15 years, they cannot describe their system of audits which involves management in anything approaching improvement.... ... Rarely do they address management's interests...
Sorry 'H' to be pesimistic
Andy

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Well, then we trainers have to do a better job of training them, cuz they aren't going to learn it themselves.

In fact, if I do an onsite training, I do my darnedest to get management to attend the opening overview session to prep them as to what to expect/demand. The auditors are usually very eager, but didn't know they were allowed to do this.

You and me both............

it's the other 6 million trainers we have to be concerned about...........

Andy

AndyN said:

it's the other 6 million trainers we have to be concerned about...........

Andy

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We'll just have to win them, one at a time...