Does Your Organization Really Benefit from Internal Audits? Time for a Change?

tedschmitt said:

Interesting article / debate about internal auditing :

https://www.irca.org/inform/issue14/WadeOak.html

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Good article. The anti view is realistic, but old view. Jim Wade's view is much more progressive and beneficial.

Anything that is not performed well, is not likely to provide great value. So do we stop doing the activity, or learn how to do it to good benefit.

I think the problem is we need to revise how we train internal auditors. Internal auditors should not be taught the same program as external auditors. It should be a different approach. In that regard, AndyN is correct.

Re: Time for changes - Does your organization really benefit from internal audits?

fireonce said:

Yeah,we can find a number of nonconformances and then correct them.
The most important point is that our manager pays a great attention to it.

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Can your auditors also identify improvements and preventive actions? They should not limit their review to nonconformances.

We note most of these items in every report for each audit area:
general comments
observations
strengths
weaknesses
opportunities for improvement
nonconforming conditions
continuous improvement
preventive actions

To this day, the audits are still welcomed and thought of as beneficial to the company. The reports are read by all involved and upper management.

I remember when I first became a Quality Consultant in 1986 with my first Customer being a distributor of children's goods and I had an automotive quality background.

I put in a 2nd tier "integrated" automotive system in this company and it worked very well. We had control of our suppliers, had sampling plans and it was all integrated into the present work force.

Except - I did not have an internal audit system.

Well, I was called back 4 years later. The company had hired someone in Quality that I met but it got rather fuzzy on what the person's duties were.

I reviewed their quality system that I developed. Everything was gone with some systems taking 2 years to eventually stop. I noticed that full 2 way traceability system stopped one day and no one noticed. That was the end of that system. That system was imperative for such items as children's strollers, etc. - GONE!!!!

I was wrong!! If I had developed an internal audit system, the system would have been maintained.

I know we develop systems for compliance but a solid internal audit system is for your company, not just for compliance.

I'm against working on something strictly for compliance reasons. Kinda up there with fast food. But I'm digressing.

I too have worked in various industries yet I come from the automotive manufacturing sector. Lots of good tools there. One favorite of mine - a simple customized tool good for anywhere is what I call an LLA - Light Layered Audit. Very much like the Layered Process Audit sometimes used in the auto industry but if customized for your specific company it can be a useful tool because ...it involves people - at many levels
it drives communications
it produces results beyond 'simple compliance'
it maintains itself
blah, blah blah....

When all levels adhere to it, the continuous improvement side just soars!

BUT like any audit, if it's not supported by management by reporting and supporting appropriate corrective actions and proper root cause analysis (3L5Y is best! ) then it's a fruitless activity that may not even be compliant at best.


Forgive me if this has alrady been posted but I couldn't read every post - only about five pages of them.

Oldrice-

Re: Time for changes - Does your organization really benefit from internal audits?

ScottK said:

I've done internal and external auditing and really don't see much difference of substance in the methodology.

As far as they are benficial?
That's all up to upper management, isn't it?
If they take them seriously then they will be beneficial. If they see them as a necessary evil, not so much. If they seem them as a non-priority then not at all.

So maybe the question would better phrased as "does your management support an audit program"?

The best audit process in the world will be ineffective if it's not supported.

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I plan internal quality audits, conducts them by myself. .... but after doing the same departments over & over again is not bringing the results.
Middle management thinks it is a neccessary evil while the upper management supports it.
We are something in the middle of beneficial to non priority to evil.

Re: The no spin zone

Sidney Vianna said:

Very simple: 45 out of 65 respondents answered yes to the question "Does your organization really benefit from internal audits?".

Personally, I don't think that this poll results represent the universe of organizations performing internal audits. I believe, just like you, that most internal audits done in order to comply with a standard the organization subscribes to, are wasted efforts.

But the poll results don't support our theory.

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Although there probably are some people here who believe that an internal audit is beneficial not all do. I personally think they are a waste of time.

Some will say, well if you aren't finding non-conformances but they are being found during an external audit then you aren't doing a good job as an internal audit. I say then the external auditor is being too darn picky about things. Only you, the people who work at your company every day, know how your business runs and what makes it run smoothly, properly, and successfully. External auditors only know how they feel it should be changed so they understand your business.

I think internal audits run in the style of ISO9001 external audits, primarily for the benefit of ISO9001 certification are a waste of time, however I do think the concept of auditing is good and it can be a useful tool.

I imagine the poll result is skewed in favour of audits because there are lots of ISO9001 people on this forum !

Ask 100 CEO's and see what answer you get (if they are honest CEO's)

Re: Time for changes - Does your organization really benefit from internal audits?

Helmut Jilling said:

Can your auditors also identify improvements and preventive actions? They should not limit their review to nonconformances.

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In my audit reports I note:
Observations
Nonconformances
Opportunities for improvement

Since the nonconformances are the only items that have to be addressed (in either internal or external audits) they are the only ones that are addressed.

How to turn this around?

Re: Time for changes - Does your organization really benefit from internal audits?

confused1 said:

In my audit reports I note:
Observations
Nonconformances
Opportunities for improvement

Since the nonconformances are the only items that have to be addressed (in either internal or external audits) they are the only ones that are addressed.

How to turn this around?

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Hello Confused1,

What you should add to your list is Potential Nonconformities (Risks).
Those are prime candidates for Preventive Action.

If you can identify just one potential (risk) nonconformity as a result of an internal audit, and you can quantify (to a certain extent) in $$$$ what your company is about to lose, or exposed to, you create quite a number of fans...

I always encourage the auditors that I work with to give their eyes and ears a good workout. That requires them to look way beyond the customary list of audit questions and really put the system and its processes through the test. Talking about a great opportunity to add value.... Wow!

Stijloor.