Does Your Organization Really Benefit from Internal Audits? Time for a Change?

Re: Time for changes - Does your organization really benefit from internal audits?

confused1 said:

In an effort to add value to internal auditing ( I have been doing compliance auditing for a while and feel it is of limited value as it's a go-no-go guage) I have wondered if perhaps I should take a risk management approach.

I work in a distribution center for replacement parts (all we do is purchase, recieve, pack, stock, pick and ship).

I kinda wonder if risk management would be like using a sledge hammer on the head of a pin. -also have to wonder about management's perception.

All management wants is to get the $$$ out the door.

So we get a lot of returns - mabey that would be a good place to start.

Thoughts/ comments, please.

confused1

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If a distribution center is getting a lot of complaints and returns, there truly is a problem.

Value-added or Improvement Auditing is a much better approach to internal audits, but might be difficult if management is hostile toward the program. If not hostile, it might work.

(I do a training program on Auditing for Improvement which has had very good results, if you are interested.)

Absolutely, our internal audits continue to find the gaps in our systems (mostly document control and follow-through), but we have gotten some of the greater benefites from use of layered process audits. Those keep attention on items daily and seem to get more management attention.

My concern thought with Layered Audits (feedback from everyone, please), is how to keep them fresh. After awhile when things are "good" they start to become a bit of a pencil whip exercise. The audits should be dynamic and focus on customer issues and high RPNs from the FMEA as well as daily maintenance and 5S items, but as existing problems begin to be resolved and verified, the audits lose their shine and peolple get bored with them.

Any ideas would be appreciated!
Thanks!

Does An Organization Really Benefit from Internal Audits?

It surely does!!!... as others explained...

Time for a change?

...well, keeping them “fresh” is really one of the toughest task to maintain…actually, this is really the undesirable side of internal audits… everyone gets tired… and everyone seems not getting serious… until it become “for the sake of documentation” rather than “for the sake of improvement”…

…and I’ve seen so many strategies to make them keep them flowing… still the best and the most effective way is when the top management get involve… even the most stubborn and uncooperative manager will have no option or excuse but to comply… no matter how boring it is...

…afterall as they say, no project has become successful without the “true” support from the top management…

(I added the word “true” to denote serious commitment from the top management)

Absolutely...our organization benefit from Internal Audits...because there are several observations that can be transformed for the additional improvement for our company.
raffy

This is all very interesting conversation to me because my boss "Quality Director" is asking me as the lead auditor to make internal audits more interesting to management during our management reviews.

I had a company call me the other day. This company is offering to do our internal audits for us and they ensure me that this will meet the requirements of the standard. They charge a flat fee to audit our company once or twice a year, they perform the audits enough ahead of our registrars audit so that we have time to resolve any issues and they will make observations that will allow our audit teams more time to focus on continuous improvement. This same company is also a registrar. Sound like a scam?

I don't know how many of you have been involved in ISO since your company was first certified but speaking from experience.... internal and external audits have been almost exactly the same from the biginning, why wouldn't the training be the same? We're looking for compliance to the same standard....

Something definitely up there. The whole presumption that internal audits are only done just prior to External assessment/surveillance would be one of the biggest issues of concern for the company where this is happening. the whole point of the internal audits are for continued monitoring of the systems, identifying issues as they crop up (i.e. as they are identified in as an audit NC).

I would not say that the internal and external audits are the same. I assume i'm right in thinking generally internal audits are subjective and so would be different from company to company so it may not be the case for all, however the external audits we have for 9001 focus on different points from a vastly different perspective in comparison to the internal audits that are mainly project (and occasionally also systems) based.

Agreed that internal and external audits are not exactly the same. External audits don't go into the depth that internal audits should but we are still both trying to ensure that the company meets the same requirements therefore the only thing that can be much different is how in depth the audit goes. Our external auditor rarely looks to ensure we are using current documentation but that's something that we check in our internal audits every time.

Internal Audits have the capability to be an amazing tool if implemented properly. Your team are the experts on your system, your processes, and your organization.

There will be minimal - if any - benefits if your audit process:

• Focuses only on documents and spelling and verifying that every single step is followed absolutely perfectly - there is more to a management system than grammar and, unless the process you are assessing is critical, focus elsewhere. The police are unable to catch everyone who speeds, and focus on those who are speeding excessively. Focus on the important areas...not the little details!
• Worries about offending people. An audit is about the processes...not the people. If they get offended because you found a discrepancy, remind them that this is about improving the system and the organization...not about their feelings. The value of an audit comes from the improving the processes not ensuring that everyone is smiling.
• Audits only to the Standards' requirements. Look at effectiveness of the system, of the processes, goals, resources...the audit team should question everything, why things are done in a particular manner. To simply yes or no to whether something is done will add no value.

Your own internal audit team knows the business, where the problems may lie, and - perhaps most importantly - where the opportunities may exist. The audit process should look beyond the details and the problems...look at the interactions!...the efficiencies!...the potentials!

Question everything. Ask why we do things the way we do.

At the end of the audit, there should be a report that clearly shows the health of the process...not that it was simply alive, but that it had a healthy heartbeat, that it was thriving.

But if you want it in simple terms, it's better that you find things internally than paying some external person to find them. While it's a double-edged sword, that external person has the potential to revoke your certificate...your internal process does not.

My concern happens to be the poll results. While "Yes, we get measureable benefits" is in the lead, by adding up "Not a priority" and "No", we get well over half of the respondents.

Root cause time...WHY? Why are internal audits not a priority? Why would organizations drop them if they could? Where has the internal audit process failed at these organizations?

From my own personal experience and observations, I find that there is no value added when all an audit focuses on is a checklist of requirements. Yes we do this...no we don't do that. Any so-called improvements to the system are as the requirements change...that's not improvement, that's modification.

For those organizations that do benefit from internal audits, what has made your internal audit programme a success? I've alluded in my previous post to what I've seen make it a success where I've worked. What about the 38% who say there is a benefit from internal audits...rather than turn this thread into a complaint forum for internal audits, let's share our own best practices and celebrate our successes!

I do honestly believe that our internal audits benefit our company. The issue I have is how do I get management intersted in what we find? Of course our largest "finding" is documentation related, that's easy to find. We recommend changes as "observations" in our CA system and I present those to managemnt at our reviews but those are few and far between.

I've gotta run to a meeting but I find these conversations interesting. This is my first contribution to any discussion thread. Thanks!!!!