Alexander - Have we talked you out of the checklist yet? 
Seeking: ISO 9001:2000 Internal Audit Checklist for Newbie
I
IEGeek - 2006
One can only hope so
A
Alexander Keith
Ladies and Gentlemen!
and Mr. Geek,
I just lost my original reply to your posts before I had time to post it. Maybe that's a good thing. Anyway; I'm back!!
Ah; the power of the written word. What did I ask again? What was that answer again? Geez; what is this business about undocumented procedures anyway? How can anyone follow an undocumented procedure?
One reason why I came here asking for a quick checklist to audit ISO 9001:2000 was that I expected something short and sweet on the subject because ISO 9001:2000, as opposed to the 94 version, requires very few procedures to be written.
Anyway; as someone up there has correctly pointed out, my checklists will be focusing on the procedures if I want to verify implementation. I just hope that there will be more of these than the standard calls for, because one thing I am not a fan of is doing an audit of an undocumented procedure... unless I have a video camera.
Thanks everyone... including you Mr. Geek
Live Long & Prosper
Alexander Keith
over & out
and Mr. Geek,
I just lost my original reply to your posts before I had time to post it. Maybe that's a good thing. Anyway; I'm back!!
Ah; the power of the written word. What did I ask again? What was that answer again? Geez; what is this business about undocumented procedures anyway? How can anyone follow an undocumented procedure?
One reason why I came here asking for a quick checklist to audit ISO 9001:2000 was that I expected something short and sweet on the subject because ISO 9001:2000, as opposed to the 94 version, requires very few procedures to be written.
Anyway; as someone up there has correctly pointed out, my checklists will be focusing on the procedures if I want to verify implementation. I just hope that there will be more of these than the standard calls for, because one thing I am not a fan of is doing an audit of an undocumented procedure... unless I have a video camera.
Thanks everyone... including you Mr. Geek
Live Long & Prosper
Alexander Keith
over & out
Maybe it's just too late in the day - but I'm not sure what you just said.
D
db
I agree. However, even undocumented procedures should have a common path. The users of the procedure should all give a consistent answer on how the procedure is enacted. If the process is complicated, or has competency issues, then a documented procedure might be required (4.2.1 d)). Auditors might have to "push" this if an undocumented procedure shows lack of control.Alexander Keith said:
I neglected to welcome you to the Cove in my previous post. 
Also, in many cases responders to the question tend to stray from the original question. This may be because the read your question differently than the way you posted, or perhaps, their comment is because they feel it is related enough to warrant mentioning. In any sense, we look forward to reading your input in the future.
Yikes - me too. Where are my manners.db said:
Welcome!
I
IEGeek - 2006
As I read your latest reply, I am now thinking you were asking for something totally different. Are you looking for a list of differences between 1994 and 2000? I am not sure where the tangent on undocumented procedures came into play, however that being said, allow me to clarify why you recevied some of the responses you did.
You stated you were "relatively new to the mysterious world of auditing the 2000 version of the ISO9001 standard"
You also asked, "for a simple, straightforward tool, in the form of a checklist, that you {I} could use to conduct an internal audit of ALL elements of a company's quality system to ISO9001:2000, less the design element."
I attempted to dissuade you from making some of the same mistakes I have seen in the past. I am sure others have as well.
You also said you are, "in a rush for something basic." Too many times I have seen people (companies) rush into the ISO gauntlet with no planning, no structure, just an attitude of gotta have the certificate. I am not a registrar, I am not an independent consultant, I am not an auditor, I just beleive in the system and I truly feel they are the Keys to the Kingdom in the manufacturing community.
Maybe I was wrong to try and sway your judgement. Maybe I was wrong to try to impart some knowledge. Maybe I was wrong to not provide you with what you asked for, however, I still feel checklists are the wrong approach. I wish you the best of luck in what you are searching for and I would be more than happy to pass along any documents, diagrams, flow charts etc. I have created, utilized, approved yada yada yada. They are yours for the asking, they are anyone's for the asking.
Just some thoughts....
You stated you were "relatively new to the mysterious world of auditing the 2000 version of the ISO9001 standard"
You also asked, "for a simple, straightforward tool, in the form of a checklist, that you {I} could use to conduct an internal audit of ALL elements of a company's quality system to ISO9001:2000, less the design element."
I attempted to dissuade you from making some of the same mistakes I have seen in the past. I am sure others have as well.
You also said you are, "in a rush for something basic." Too many times I have seen people (companies) rush into the ISO gauntlet with no planning, no structure, just an attitude of gotta have the certificate. I am not a registrar, I am not an independent consultant, I am not an auditor, I just beleive in the system and I truly feel they are the Keys to the Kingdom in the manufacturing community.
Maybe I was wrong to try and sway your judgement. Maybe I was wrong to try to impart some knowledge. Maybe I was wrong to not provide you with what you asked for, however, I still feel checklists are the wrong approach. I wish you the best of luck in what you are searching for and I would be more than happy to pass along any documents, diagrams, flow charts etc. I have created, utilized, approved yada yada yada. They are yours for the asking, they are anyone's for the asking.
Just some thoughts....
J
Jetlag
Raptorwild said:
Hi there. Take a look at this one.
Last edited by a moderator:
Best beer in the World
Ah..Alexander Keiths India Pale Ale, just possibly the best beer in the World, made in possbly the best city in the World.
Why not try a different angle. Scan ISO and turn it into an Excel list. Then build a cross reference to your business management system showing where each requirement of ISO is met.
Once you know that the system as written meets the requirements, print it and burn it. Never think about it again. This is called a desk audit and need involve no one but you and a case of Keiths.
Audit for value instead.
Just audit the system as written. Never mention the word ISO to anyone in your company.
Take a few hours to print and read through each areas procedures, work instructions, forms, etc. Highlight some sentences that would make interesting questions.
Start by asking people to describe what they do. Does it match what is written? Looks for examples to support what they say.
Never ask how do you meet ISO 6.2.2.c. Ask what they do.
So far this is just compliance.
To add real value, spend 80% of your audit time with top management.
What is the business plan. What are the targets for the year. Are they on track? If not what is being done to get back on track? If they are on track, are there any activities underway to get better.
Do lower level managers know the plan? Are they working to support it or fire fighting?
Is there a cost of poor quality system? Is prevention being invested in to reduce detection?
Is SPC used for every chart including key business indicators?
Are decisions made based on data? Can this be shown to be the case?
Anyway, after more than 20 years in ISO world, I care little for the detail and much for the result.
Good luck - rant ends.
Alexander Keith said:
Ah..Alexander Keiths India Pale Ale, just possibly the best beer in the World, made in possbly the best city in the World.
Why not try a different angle. Scan ISO and turn it into an Excel list. Then build a cross reference to your business management system showing where each requirement of ISO is met.
Once you know that the system as written meets the requirements, print it and burn it. Never think about it again. This is called a desk audit and need involve no one but you and a case of Keiths.
Audit for value instead.
Just audit the system as written. Never mention the word ISO to anyone in your company.
Take a few hours to print and read through each areas procedures, work instructions, forms, etc. Highlight some sentences that would make interesting questions.
Start by asking people to describe what they do. Does it match what is written? Looks for examples to support what they say.
Never ask how do you meet ISO 6.2.2.c. Ask what they do.
So far this is just compliance.
To add real value, spend 80% of your audit time with top management.
What is the business plan. What are the targets for the year. Are they on track? If not what is being done to get back on track? If they are on track, are there any activities underway to get better.
Do lower level managers know the plan? Are they working to support it or fire fighting?
Is there a cost of poor quality system? Is prevention being invested in to reduce detection?
Is SPC used for every chart including key business indicators?
Are decisions made based on data? Can this be shown to be the case?
Anyway, after more than 20 years in ISO world, I care little for the detail and much for the result.
Good luck - rant ends.
Similar threads
